Monday, October 23, 2006

Do the Palestinians deserve a state to call their own? (Aka, why I am one of the few truly Pro-Palestinian people out there)

This is a follow up to earlier posts I have written. My question of the day today is: Do Palestinians deserve a functioning state to call their own? In other words, is this a normative good? And ifso, does that mean that I am anti-Palestinian by saying they currently do not deserve their own state? Ifso, then are 'pro-Palestinians' actively helping the Palestinians by calls for an immediate Palestinian state? In short, the answers to those questions are: yes, the Palestinians deserve their own state, yes, this is a normative good, no, I am not anti-Palestinian by saying they do not deserve their own state at the moment, and no, the 'pro-Palestinian' people out there are NOT helping the Palestinians by calling for an immediately Palestinian state. In fact, they are enablers for those who wish to genocide. I wish to clarify my position on when I believe the Palestinians should get their own state. I wrote this in a comment somewhere on a blog, but I believe it should be immoralized on Culture for all on the main page. I believe that the Palestinians should get their own state only when they Walid Shoebat-ize themselves. In other words, when I see that the Palestinians have given up all desire to genocide, and have turned from hate to love, and have actively apologized for their past, then I say they deserve their own state. In other words, their entire society has to change from top to bottom before I say that they deserve their own state, and before I believe it is even in the best interests of the Palestinians to HAVE their own state. A brief summary of the Palestinian sins which MUST be apologized for and the culture disavowed prior to Palestinian statehood: a) Palestinian recruitment and support for Hitler; b) Palestinian attempted genocide of Jews prior to even Israeli statehood; c) Continuous attacks on Jews from day one of Israeli statehood (no citation necessary as this is widely known); d) A culture which teaches children to hate and genocide from age 0 onward; e) The total rewriting of history done by the Palestinians; f) Support for worldwide terrorism; g) The total degradation and ill treatment of minorities, women, and gays within the Territories; h) Calls for Islamic Fundamentalism and lack of freedom of religion within the Territories; i) The total and complete terror inflicted upon the kind, decent, and freedom loving Palestinians in the Territories by those wishing to commit genocide. This is just an abridged list of the sins committed by the Palestinians. These sins are very real and incredibly extensive. However, the Germans asked for forgiveness after WWII. They currently are one of Israel's few real allies. The Japanese asked for forgiveness after WWII. They are currently a flourishing democracy and opposed to the attempted genocide on Chinese that they committed during WWII. (totally unreported, of course) In contrast, the Turks STILL pretend as if there was no genocide of Armenians that occurred almost 100 years ago. (when about 1 million Armenians were killed) They are actively hiding their past. And as such, extremism is alive and well in Turkey, a radicalized, faux-'moderate' country. In contrast, the Bosnian Muslims have never admitted their part in the Holocaust. And Bosnia, the place Clinton 'liberated' is now a hotbed for terrorism. In short, history shows us that when a people acknowledge and apologize for the atrocities they have committed in the past, then they can be trusted to build a real and functioning country. Until and unless this happens, any Palestinian nationhood at this point in time will merely be a vehicle for terror. The proof is in the greenhouses. Remember the greenhouses that were given to Gazans by the Gates Foundation, so they would have a functioning economy? They looked like this originally: They now look like this: Citation: LGF This is what greets us if we grant the Palestinians their own state at this point in time. The Palestinians have shown that they only care about death and destruction, and hence if they have their own state, they will only use it to spread more death and destruction. Hence, those who advocate a Palestinian state prior to their apology and disavowment for the litany of wrongs they have committed will only promote the Palestinians to commit even MORE wrongs. And the sad truth is that the majority of those that the Palestinians kill are in fact moderate Palestinians. The moderate Palestinians live in terror of those within their own government. Hence, if anyone truly supported the moderate Palestinians, they would support a total reworking of the society from top to bottom. I believe that if that happens, then the Palestinians deserve their own state and there can be a peaceful cooperation between the Israelis and Palestinians. Anyone who truly supports the Palestinians would be appalled at the way they have used aid they receive as simply support to commit more terror. They would demand accountability in government. They would demand justice for all. They would demand culture for all. To truly support the Palestinians means demanding more of them than simply calls for genocide. It means treating them like real citizens of the world. It means the abandonment of the soft bigotry of low expectations, which assumes that the Palestinians somehow are lesser beings and are incapable of real democracy, non-genocide, and cultural pluralism. It means the same standards should be applies to the Palestinians, in terms of the human rights record expected of their government, that is expected of the Israelis. It means a respect for women, gays, and minorities within the Palestinian Territories, as they are people, too! Lest we forget, more Palestinians have died due to Palestinians killing them than Israelis killing them! And so I truly do support the Palestinian people. I am rooting for them to change and get their own state. I am rooting for their humanity to shine through. And I make no excuses when I see their genocidal tendancies taking over. This is the mark of someone who TRULY supports the Palestinian people. Everyone else is actively working against the REAL interests of the Palestinians. They are the worst enemies of the Palestinians.

30 comments:

Bint Alshamsa said...

The real question is whether any group of people deserve a state. I say that no ethnicity deserves a state any more or less than any other. And who should be allowed to decide what a group needs to do or be in order to have a state of their own? In other words, whose standards should matter most? If who deserves a state is simply a majority rules situation, then any land can be taken away from the people who currently inhabit it if the majority of people on the planet dislikes them or wants to uproot them for whatever reason they see fit. If those within the group in question should be able to decide whether or not they deserve a state, then it doesn't really matter what outsiders think.

It's rather patronizing for an outsider to assume that they can possibly know what a groups "real interests" are or should be. If I were to say that Jews should only be given a state if they are willing to conform with what the non-Jews think they should do, it would be equally ridiculous as non-Palestinians claiming that their conditions should be met before Palestinian statehood is recognized.

Let's say we did decide to only give states to those societies where there is no hatred and only love and where the population has apologized for whatever wrongs any of their members might have engaged in. Do you realize what that would mean for Israel? Even more importantly, do you know what that would mean for every single nation on this earth? There isn't a single nation that has fulfilled the pre-requisites that you are proposing.

And what's with the sin-talk? I thought this was a secularist site. If you're going to talk about who has committed sins, then which religion's definition of sin should we use? Even if you do choose to believe in a particular deity--which is perfectly acceptable to me, even though it would mean that you were no longer an atheist--your ideas about what sins someone should apologize for are just irrational because they may not share your same preferred deity and the sin-list that goes with it. Unless you can convince the rest of the world to believe in your deity-of-choice, then there is no reason why others must make these apologies for behaviors that you think of as sins.

You see, arguments break down whenever you try to mix logic with religious views. Trying to fight religion with religion doesn't work because you'll never be able to convince everyone to adopt one single belief system. As long as others have their own preferred religion, they will base their actions on what's right in their belief system and not what's right in yours.

Red Tulips said...

bint alshamsa:

So you do not even believe in statehood? That's nice. So you believe that it's cool to just have Islamofascists take over and dictate how you should live, because we have no right to kick them out, right? After all, there shouldn't be a state, and so according to you, there are no national boundaries.

Given I want to keep my way of life, there absolutely needs to be national boundaries and there absolutely has to be limits on who can come in and who cannot. Especially those who wish to genocide me. Yeah, I would say...KEEP THEM OUT.

The REAL INTERESTS of the GOOD Palestinians is in peace and prosperity, as well as having a nation. I am aware of the real interests of the genodical Palestinians. They wish to kill every Jew. That is what they want. It is less about nationhood and more about the killing.

My conditions are rather sane. I am saying...stop the killing, stop preaching genocide, and treat your women, minorities, and gays like human beings. Oh yeah, and admit you are doing this, and apologize for your actions, and pledge it will not happen again. Those are my conditions. Is that so insane? Is that so irrational? Hardly. The fact is that the Palestinians absolutely are doing all of this. I documented every single word that I wrote. You can follow the links.

Israelis are not preaching genocide. Only the Palestinians are preaching genocide. This is a documented fact. Go into any Israeli elementary school. You will see kids learning the aleph bet as well as math, science, and social studies. In other words, normal things you learn in schools. Go into any Palestinian school and you will see a constant stream of death propoganda. They are taught from age 0 onwards to kill and be shahids. This is NOT happening in Israel. It is not happening in the USA. It is not happening in any western nation. The only place this happens is in Islamofascist societies, such as the Palestinian society. (it also happens in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan - amongst other nations)

But the difference between the Palestinian Territories and say, Iran, is that the Territories are not a nation as of right now. We can prevent them using their nationhood status to genocide Jews. Iran already is a nation and taking down their nation would involve active warfare and heavy casualties on all sides.

Furthermore, the only reason there is a 'Palestinian' nationality is because of Israel. There were no Palestinians prior to Israel forming. For instance, Arafat was born and raised in Egypt. Edward Said claimed to be Palestinian, but he was born and raised elsewhere as well. (and lied about his birthplace) The vast majority of 'Palestinians' are in fact transplanted Egyptians, Jordians, Syrians, and Lebanese. The Palestinian identity in other words formed around one goal: wiping Israel off the map and killing Jews.

In contrast, while the Iranian mullahs wish to wipe Israel off the map, there is a very long and extensive Persian identity that has nothing to do with killing Jews. Their culture and identity in short is not defined by Jew hatred.

Until the Palestinian identity consists of more than genocide, then they are actually not even a real ethnicity and absolutely should not be rewarded for their genocidal death cult society by granting them a state with which to kill Israelis.

Finally, the sins I speak of are not bibical sins. They are sins against humanity. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say 'it is wrong to do this because God says it's wrong.' However, it is inhumane to teach genocide from age 0 onwards. It is inhumane to treat women, minorities, and gays as they do. It is inhumane to make up history. It is inhumane to help and support the Nazis.

As a believer in humanity I am absolutely appalled by all that the Palestinians have done.

And that is why they do not deserve their own state until they ADMIT their actions, APOLOGIZE for them, and show they no longer stand for such atrocities.

This is what the Germans did. This is what the Japanese did. Both nations are now peaceful and progressive. In contrast, as I stated, this is NOT what the Turks have done, and it is NOT what the Bosnian Muslims have done. Their nations are now hotbeds for fundamentalism and hatred.

The only way forward in the future is to admit the past and apologize. This is what history has shown us.

Steven said...

Great summary.

I find the pictures of the Gush Katif Greenhouses very disturbing - it is a shame there isn't one showing Gush Katif after the Palestinians took over without the soldier standing there. I think he detracts attention from the wasteland and military facility they have converted these farms into.

Just imagine for a moment if Israel decided to attack these terrorist facilities. The international outcry would be huge saying that Israel is attacking civilian "Greenhouses" and harming the Palestinians ability to make a living.

Yeah, right.

-----

I kinda agree somewhat to Bint when she says where will this all lead. Is this just a "majority rules" situation? When enough people say you should not exist as a country should they be eliminated? It is dangerous ground. But that happens to be exactly how the world works.

I do not see this case as a majority rules situation though. The Majority of the world supports the PLO and the ideal of forming a PLO state. They kindly omit teaching people that the PLO has its history strongly linked with Nazi Germany. The majority of people who dictate foreign policy want a PLO terrorist state to attack Israel. (Note: Not a Peaceful Palestinian state.)

It is for the minority to prevent that state from existing until it becomes a viable society. You might think that is ethnocentric, and it is.

A society which indoctrinates children with hate is not a functioning healthy society and should not be given power. The PLO is a gang-culture, nothing more. Giving these gang-leaders the recognition to create a state is a crime not only to Israel, civilisation and peace - it is a crime upon peaceful Arabs who can be murdered in cold blood and dragged through the streets if they disagree with their gang leaders. It is a disaster for the world to award a group with aspirations for genocide with the legitimacy of state-hood.

Steven said...

No state has a "right to exist", no state has an inherent legitimacy.

However one must think about what sort of society they are building. Allowing an army with stated goals of genocide to function as a state is endorsing that goal - it is helping lay the groundwork for genocide. This is why the PLO is not a valid state and should not be accepted.

Humans are generally not born with the aspiration of genocide, it is taught. This is why the PLO is not a valid representative of the Arabs.

A terror state must be rejected.

-----

I see no inherent reason why the "Palestinians" should get another state.

Firstly, the role of Jordan was to split the "Palestine" mandate into two parts. TransJordan would be the Arab state and Israel the Jewish state. Unfortunately TransJordan was taken over by a minority - the Hashimites. If the Palestine Arabs want a state of their own their fight is with Jordan (but they will not take up that fight because Jordan would and has murdered thousands of them in a single day to hold onto power).

Secondly, the Palestine Arabs have built themselves a society built on war, death and indoctrinated hate. This culture has no legitimacy.

However, we are in a situation where we have to accept the realities around us. There are Arabs who have been shunted by their brothers and are now fighting for a state in our land. They are a political tool to attack Israel, nothing more, but they are not going to stop attacking us because Israel is not brutal enough to enable policies like Jordan did to quell the attacks once and for all. These Arabs have learnt that their best hope for a state is in our Israel. To complicated matters, terror groups have rallied around the Palestine Arabs in an effort to expel the infidels from sacred Islamic lands.

So that is our situation. It really should not be for Israel to solve this problem, but we are slap bang in the middle of it.

So this is my opinion:

Do Palestinians deserve a state? No, nobody does, but they have been formed into a stateless people and want self-determination.

Should they be given a state? Yes!

Should they get their state in Israel? No - it should be in Jordan.

Should we give them a state in Israel anyway? Probably yes - it is the best way out of a bad situation and a necessary step to help these people to get back on their feet.

Should they get it now? NO. 100% no way hozay!

Giving the Arabs a state now is giving the PLO a state. It is giving genocidal ambitions a state. It is a bad move for everyone.

So when?

-----

I have 2 steps (in an ideal world they should be applied together) that must be followed before a state should be awarded:

# Step 1: has to be eliminating the terror networks.

# Step 2: has to force the Arabs to live in a society where killing is not seen as a solution to their problems.

(See Iraq for a demonstration of how these two aims are going.)

By step 3 we should have a functioning peace-loving state that cares about the value of human life. (A necessary value in any healthy functioning society.)

Steven said...

You are spot on. When people protect the PLO they are harming the "Palestinians". The people who truly care would fight these terror networks who rob their chidren of their humanity.

Red Tulips said...

Steven,

I agree with you on the steps necessary to form a peaceful society. I just do not see them as being implemented anytime soon.

Steven said...

Yeah, your right. :-)

It is because of what Bint said:
"If who deserves a state is simply a majority rules situation, then any land can be taken away from the people who currently inhabit it if the majority of people on the planet dislikes them or wants to uproot them for whatever reason they see fit."

It is a bad idea to give a state to genocidal terrorists; but this is the majority wants. The international community supports the PLO. They want a terrorist state next to Israel.

Even the USA provided the PLO with armed protection after Israel kicked them out - and then forced Israel to recognise them as representatives of the Arab people! That resulted in giving the PLO power to govern and "educate" the Palestine Arabs.

Do you think there is much we can do to make things better?

It all looks a bit grim. :s

Steven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Red Tulips said...

Steven,

What a great essay! It would be a great addition to the Culture for All main page. :-)

It also sums up the problem of moral relativism very clearly.

Steven said...

Posted. :)

Steven said...

All this talk about a state is foolish, I just forgot for a moment that the Arabs do not actually want a "Palestinian" state unless it means the destruction of Israel - an aspiration that will never bear fruits.

Bint Alshamsa said...

Red Tulips:

So you do not even believe in statehood?

Did I say that?

So you believe that it's cool to just have Islamofascists take over and dictate how you should live, because we have no right to kick them out, right?

Did I say this either?

After all, there shouldn't be a state, and so according to you, there are no national boundaries.

Instead of making assumptions about what I believe, why not actually read what I wrote. Evidently you didn't because I haven't made any of the statements that you are creating about my views.

Given I want to keep my way of life, there absolutely needs to be national boundaries and there absolutely has to be limits on who can come in and who cannot.

This is your opinion. The fact that you want to live a certain way does not mean that you are somehow entitled to a nation.

Especially those who wish to genocide me.

An individual can't be "genocided". Genocide is something that happens to a group. Lexcen provided an excellent definition of the term and if you read it you'll understand why that's the case.

The REAL INTERESTS of the GOOD Palestinians is in peace and prosperity, as well as having a nation.

How are your ideas about what the "REAL INTERESTS" OF Palestinians are any more valid than what someone else's ideas of what the "REAL INTERESTS" of Palestinians are? If you should be able to determine what is in their best interests, then why shouldn't they be able to determine what is in the best interests of Jews?

They wish to kill every Jew. That is what they want.

The problem is that when a nation bombs people, the innocent people are killed along with the guilty. So, if you want to preserve the good people, you can't bomb them into a million pieces. That kills them and it makes their families really mad. Just look at how the Shoah is still affecting the opinions of Jews around the world. People are all the same regardless of ethnicity.

My conditions are rather sane. I am saying...stop the killing, stop preaching genocide, and treat your women, minorities, and gays like human beings.

Unfortunately, your conditions do not matter any more than the conditions they set for Jews. We can all set up conditions for others that some might find sane. That still does not mean that anyone should abide by our conditions.

Those are my conditions. Is that so insane? Is that so irrational? Hardly

What's irrational is thinking that anyone should be able to kill innocent people in order to accomplish their goals. Unfortunately, some people are willing to kill others if their conditions are not met. In my eyes, that's problematic, to say the least.

The fact is that the Palestinians absolutely are doing all of this. I documented every single word that I wrote. You can follow the links.

Nothing you've linked to shows that "the Palestinians" are attempting genocide any more than "the Israelis" are doing so. Yes, some Palestinians are advocating genocide. At the same time, so are some Israelis and so are some Americans and so are some French and so are some Germans and so on.

Go into any Israeli elementary school. You will see kids learning the aleph bet as well as math, science, and social studies. In other words, normal things you learn in schools. Go into any Palestinian school and you will see a constant stream of death propoganda.

Have you ever actually been inside of a Palestinian school? Do you really believe that they aren't learning their "alif baa" as well as science and math and social studies? If this were really true, then there would be no Palestinians who know how to add, subtract, or read and write. Do you really have any proof of this or are you simply trying to use hyperbole?

But the difference between the Palestinian Territories and say, Iran, is that the Territories are not a nation as of right now.

How are they not a nation? You do realize that the statements you're making about them are the same as the ones that some say about Israel? Any group can consider itself a nation regardless of whether someone else is willing to recognize them as one or not.

We can prevent them using their nationhood status to genocide Jews.

And how do you propose we do this? Should we kill innocent people along with the guilty?

Furthermore, the only reason there is a 'Palestinian' nationality is because of Israel. There were no Palestinians prior to Israel forming.

This is just illogical. There were no Israelis before Israel was formed. There were no Americans before America was formed. People define themselves in all sorts of ways. The world could simply say that both those who call themselves Palestinians and those who call themselves Israelis are a part of the same nation. Would that mean that Israel or Palestine does not exist?

For instance, Arafat was born and raised in Egypt. Edward Said claimed to be Palestinian, but he was born and raised elsewhere as well. (and lied about his birthplace) The vast majority of 'Palestinians' are in fact transplanted Egyptians, Jordians, Syrians, and Lebanese.

This is a really problematic idea because the fact is that all of the people who reside in Palestine/Israel come from somewhere else. If we're going to talk about people's roots, then Israelis end up with this same problem because they come from the same places as all the other Semitic people in that area. That's what makes them all Semitic peoples.

The Palestinian identity in other words formed around one goal: wiping Israel off the map and killing Jews.

This is just an opinion. Can you show that every Palestinian defines her/himself around killing Jews? If this were the case, then the majority of Palestinians would be killers. Is this the case or is it just a segment of their population that commits the crimes?

Until the Palestinian identity consists of more than genocide, then they are actually not even a real ethnicity and absolutely should not be rewarded for their genocidal death cult society by granting them a state with which to kill Israelis.

Where are you getting this definition of ethnicity? The last time I checked the definition of an ethnic group had nothing to do with genocide. As a matter of fact, the assertion that you are making (i.e. that Palestinians all form their identity around a desire to commit genocide) would, if true, prove that they are indeed an ethnicity according to the definition of the word. So which claim are you trying to make? The two are mutually exclusive.

Finally, the sins I speak of are not bibical sins. They are sins against humanity. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say 'it is wrong to do this because God says it's wrong.'

Sin itself is a religious concept. There is no ethical basis for the idea of sin. One can be guilty of a crime but that's far different from "sinning".

However, it is inhumane to teach genocide from age 0 onwards. It is inhumane to treat women, minorities, and gays as they do. It is inhumane to make up history. It is inhumane to help and support the Nazis.

It is inhumane to teach genocide against any group. It is inhumane to discriminate against ANY group of people on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. It is inhumane to help and support ANY group that slaughters innocent people.

As a believer in humanity I am absolutely appalled by all that the Palestinians have done.

As a believer in humanity I am disgusted by the fact that ANY person thinks that killing ANY innocent person is EVER justifiable.

Bint Alshamsa said...

Steven:

I kinda agree somewhat to Bint when she says where will this all lead. Is this just a "majority rules" situation? When enough people say you should not exist as a country should they be eliminated?

I am very concerned about this. If we (the human inhabitants of this planet) were to adhere to this principle, then groups like the Jews and the Native Americans and the Palestinians may well cease to exist in the future. That's not something that I want to see happen. I do not believe that we are powerless to change "how the world works". As I said to Red Tulips, I believe that every sentient (that's the closest word that I can think of to approximate what I mean here) person can decide what sort of person they want to be. We can either support the killing of innocent people or we can refuse to support this. Saying that the current situation is just "how the world works" lets people off the hook for their actions that I think they should be held accountable for. If a bunch of Palestinians try to eliminate a bunch of Jews, then they should be held responsible for their actions. Likewise, so should members of every other ethnicity when they engage in the same actions. Please not that I said the individuals because I do not believe in holding entire ethnicities accountable for the actions of a few. That sort of scapegoating is exactly what the Nazis did to groups like the Jews, the Roma, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the homosexuals. It is wrong to do this to any group.

The Majority of the world supports the PLO and the ideal of forming a PLO state. They kindly omit teaching people that the PLO has its history strongly linked with Nazi Germany.

The majority of the world doesn't support Israel or Palestine. If they did, then they'd work to find a solution that would allow both groups a safe place to live and thrive. There are many groups that are linked to Nazi Germany including several Jewish ones.

The majority of people who dictate foreign policy want a PLO terrorist state to attack Israel.

If this were the case, then Israel would cease to exist. I think that most of the countries that dictate foreign policy--and let's face it, America is the biggest factor here--simply finds the instability of this region to be quite convient. It's a helpful distraction that many administrations have used while both the Palestinians and the Israelis play into their hands over and over again.

It is for the minority to prevent that state from existing until it becomes a viable society. You might think that is ethnocentric, and it is.

Well, if one group's ethnocentrism is acceptable, then what ground do we have for rejecting this when other groups engage in actions based on the same thing?

A society which indoctrinates children with hate is not a functioning healthy society and should not be given power.

I agree. Unfortunately, there aren't any nations where children aren't indoctrinated with hatred. If there were, there would be no armies, no wars, no bigotry. That just isn't the case.

It is a disaster for the world to award a group with aspirations for genocide with the legitimacy of state-hood.

This is the same argument given by some who do not see Israel as a legitimate state. It seems that many people would prefer to hold groups responsible for the actions of a few.

Bint Alshamsa said...

Steven:

No state has a "right to exist", no state has an inherent legitimacy.

I'm glad that you understand that. It's too bad that most people in the world would rather cling to other ideas. The sort of sense of entitlement that many people have these days is just not healthy, I think.

However one must think about what sort of society they are building.

Why stop at what sort of society someone wishes to build? What about those that are already in existence? Should the world eliminate those societies with policies and goals that it does not support?

Allowing an army with stated goals of genocide to function as a state is endorsing that goal - it is helping lay the groundwork for genocide.

The only way that one can prevent people from functioning as a state, if that's what they want to do, is to kill them outright. Of course, if the majority of the world hates Israel, then that would probably spell the end of that nation too.

This is why the PLO is not a valid state and should not be accepted.

Your feelings about this may stop at just the PLO but I do not see why we should support any group that engages in genocide.

Humans are generally not born with the aspiration of genocide, it is taught. This is why the PLO is not a valid representative of the Arabs.

Likewise, those individuals of any ethnicity who support genocidal activity should not be considered valid representatives of their ethnic group.

A terror state must be rejected.

Amen, brother!

If the Palestine Arabs want a state of their own their fight is with Jordan (but they will not take up that fight because Jordan would and has murdered thousands of them in a single day to hold onto power).

This fails to take into account the fact that many Palestinians do not want to live in Jordan. Many of them would like to return to the place that they consider their "set home". Also, there are the cultural ties that these two groups possess. It's the same situation as how Jews born in completely different countries can feel more united with other Jews even when they are genetically more related to Palestinians and Jordanians.

This culture has no legitimacy.

Well, if we can all just declare what cultures have legitimacy, then what should we do about those who say the same about Jews who come from all around the world to live in one place but do not accept each other as one group? The fact of the matter is, anyone can set up standards in order to declare that people within a particular culture do not deserve to exist or be acknowledged and treated as equals.

However, we are in a situation where we have to accept the realities around us.

This is problematic because "reality" isn't the same for or to everyone. When I think about reality I see an area of the world where a bunch of brothers Jews and Arabs have been traversing and fighting over for thousands of years. I see no reason to believe that those who kill innocent people in that area should be supported no matter what they call themselves: Muslim, Israeli, Palestinian, Jew, Christian, Druze, etc.

It really should not be for Israel to solve this problem, but we are slap bang in the middle of it.

Why shouldn't it be for Israel to solve this problem? The Jews are just as much the brothers of the Palestinians as are the Jordanians and Egyptians and Syrians.

I have 2 steps (in an ideal world they should be applied together) that must be followed before a state should be awarded:

Well, I'm sure we all have our standards regarding what "legitimized" states should be like. However, unless these standards are applied equally to all states, you'll never get people to go along with your standards no matter how wonderful they may seem.

Red Tulips said...

bint alshamsa:

In fact, I have Israeli relatives and I know exactly what they learned in schools. It was not killing Palestinians. I went to Hebrew school. I did not learn to genocide Palestinians in Hebrew School. Steven can speak to this as well.

In contrast, I already provided a link to Palestinian media watch. It is well documented that the Palestinians are taught to genocide Israelis in school. This is what they are taught. The Palestinians Media Watch link has a link to material in Palestinian textbooks.

As far as nationhood goes - yes, they are artificial lines in the sand. But in many respects, these artificial lines in the sand are what enable people to continue living the life that they want to live. If in fact there was no nationhood, then majority rule over the planet would reign supreme. In other words, nationhood absolutely protects minorities.

What do you think would happen if Israel were to allow Palestinians to flood their borders? The Israelis would be annhiliated. This is a guarantee. Hamas and the PLO have this as their stated goals. As someone of Native American ancestry, I would think you would be the biggest supporter of the Israelis!

You are making these moral equivalence claims that are flat out untrue. You are somehow saying that Israelis are taught to hate just as the Palestinians are, and that both are wrong. Prove it. This is a complete abrogation of reality.

You are also incredibly confused about history. You somehow think that the Palestinians are suffering because of Israel. In fact, the Palestinians are ethnically mostly Jordanian and Egyptian, and are suffering because of the undemocratic and authoritarian nature of these nations. The Palestinians are also suffering because of the undemocratic and authoritarian nature of the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians were expelled from Jordan, and in fact, they should be taking up their 'cause' with Jordan. Instead, however, all of the Arab nations in the world are blaming Israel for the problems the 'Palestinians' face, when in fact the problems are caused by the Arab world! The Palestinian cause is the greatest 'wedge issue' of them all.

Israelis formed their own culture from a common Jewish identity when Israel formed, but it was not formed around the concept of genociding any group of people. The Palestinian identity never existed prior to the existence of Israel, but the very core tenants are of destruction, and not creation. Their core belief is destroying Israel, and not providing a viable state for themselves. Just look at the greenhouses as the perfect example of this. In a world of moral equivalence, this is considered a perfectly fine cultural identity, because 'who are we to judge the culture of another group'? But in the real world, where I judge morality on the basis of what is best for HUMANITY, then an ethnicity dedicated to GENOCIDE is not a real ethnicity at all and is not deserving of a state until this changes.

What should be done until then? Israel needs to wipe out the terror networks and prevent antisemitic libels from airing constantly on Palestinian TV and being in textbooks. This way, perhaps there is a chance for the next generation of Palestinians. They also need to FIGHT BACK against the terror. If innocents die, well, that is sad. And steps should be taken to avoid civilian casualty (and steps are taken). But that is also the fault of the Palestinian terrorists, who purposely hide amongst civilians. If a killer shoots at you and your family, and in trying to protect your family, you try and shoot the killer and accidentally kill a bystander, then the death of the bystander is the logical and LEGAL fault of the killer.

Sorry, but I am not about to lie down and play dead. I already know you advocated 'peaceful resistance' to Hitler during the Holocaust, and so you think this is somehow the answer. But your logic is illogical to the core. You are advocating 'peace,' when the reality of what you are advocating is genocide. If the Israelis lay down and play dead, and refuse to fight back, they will be annhiliated.

Sorry, but I am not okay with another Holocaust.

Red Tulips said...

I also wrote the following on bint's blog, though she has a comment screener:

In fact, if you read the book 'The Bielski Brothers' you would see that there was direct evidence that the informers who were killed were aiding and abetting the Nazis to kill Jews. The direct evidence was in the form of a letter, written by the Nazis, found on the informer's person, thanking the person for telling him where Jews were hiding.

As far as your contention that nonviolence was an option...

You did not explain how a single one of the Jews that the Bielskis saved would have lived through the Holocaust, had the Bielskis not fought back. Were they 'forced' to fight back? No, in the sense that they could have chosen to die instead of fighting back. In the world you live in, it is better to die than fight back. In the world I live in, that is a total abomination.

The Palestinians are not being genocided according to any definition of the word. There has not been any effort by the Israelis to wipe them ANY of them out, save the ones who are actively trying to kill Israelis.

According to you, it is a 'genocide' to attempt to kill those who are actively trying to kill you. That is the most nonsensical twisting of the term 'genocide' that I have ever read.

Are there different laws for Jews and for Muslims within Israel? Yes - but this is because Arab Israelis request different laws.

You have not provided one shread of proof that Arab Israelis want to be in Jewish schools and are banned from Jewish schools.

The mere fact that there are seperate schools does not 'prove' apartheid.

The mere fact that Muslim Councils rule on family law concerns for Arab Israelis does not prove apartheid - as Arab Israelis want Muslim councils to rule on family law matters.

Finally, you are equating what the Bielskis did to 'killing someone in order to provide housing for others.' In addition to that being the most disgusting form of moral equivalence, it is also untrue. The Bielskis killed in order to keep a group of 1200 Jews alive, who otherwise would have been massacred during the Holocaust. They did not kill 'to provide housing.' They did not indiscriminately kill, either. You also left out the part about Polish civilians saluting Hitler and how the Polish children also were cooperating with the Nazis and leading to the death of Jews. (documented in the Bielski Brothers book, but also generally widely known and documented)

Sometimes, when faced with a total genocide, one has to ask oneself the question of how far one is willing to go to protect the lives of those you love. I already know that you are willing to walk softly into the gallows, and allow a total massacre of your entire family. I know you are unwilling to fight to defend the lives of those you love.

I am.

And to pretend 'well, this is a justification for Palestinian terrorism' is the most nonsensical and completely non-fact based assertion on the planet. The Palestinians are NOT being systematically slaughtered - the Jews in the Holocaust were. They are suffering because of the actions of Jordan and Egypt (as well as other Arab nations), and not Israel. To even compare the actions of Israel to those of the Nazis is to engage in the most shocking form of propoganda, doublethink, and ignorance of reality that is imagineable.

See: http://bintalshamsa.blogspot.com/2006/10/excusing-inexcusable.html

Steven said...

Woah, I have a lot of replies here.

Bint, please excuse me if I just reply to the large response which you duplicated on your blog. :)

Steven said...

Oh, I just read your first two paragraphs. I think this discussion is even better than the other one we are having.

Life is getting in the way, but I would like to continue this discussion with you when I have some spare time. I have started on the Moral Reletivism post first; so this will have to take second place.

Bint Alshamsa said...

Drats! I only have like one minute to spend online right now. Red Tulips, did your comment not show up on my blog? I don't have time to check right now but if it didn't, would you mind re-sending it. I have yet to see anything from you that I wouldn't post on my site. As long as someone isn't engaging in the gratuitous use of "profanities" (within context is perfectly okay with me) or engaging in homophobic, sexist, or racist speech, then I'd rather engage them than censor them.

Oh yeah, you can't bad mouth the state of Louisiana either! I'm a proud southern girl through and through! ;oP

شهرزاد Shahrazad said...

So you" believe that the Palestinians should get their own state only when they Walid Shoebat-ize themselves. In other words, when I see that the Palestinians have given up all desire to genocide, and have turned from hate to love, and have actively apologized for their past, then I say they deserve their own state. In other words, their entire society has to change from top to bottom before I say that they deserve their own state, and before I believe it is even in the best interests of the Palestinians to HAVE their own state.

But then you're generalizing a bit about them being hateful and in favour of genocide so why would you be pro their having a state. If i believed someone was a terrorist i certainly wouldn't want them to have a state of their own.

I'm very against the suicide bombings in Israel but do you not acknowledge that Israel has a lot to apologize for too or just the palestinians?
You're forgetting the root of all of this and dealing instead with, wrong and unjustifiable as they may be, the symptoms of their blight, no?

Red Tulips said...

شهرزاد Shahrazad,

Your question is "do you not acknowledge that Israel has a lot to apologize for too or just the palestinians?"

My answer is...no one is perfect. But Israel's crimes are nothing compared to what the Palestinians have done. I should add that they have done what they have done because their leaders taught them to hate from age 0 onwards, and treat them like shit. So really, the fault lies with the leaders.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Arab rioting against the Jews started decades prior to Israel forming as a state; the genocidal death cult ideology formed with Haj Hamin Al-Husseini prior to even the rise of Naziism, and the Grand Mufti actively supported Hitler.

Why do the Palestinians hate the Jews? They hate because they hate - because they are taught to hate. It is not at all tied to any specific action on the part of Israel, other than its very existence.

Anyway, thanks for posting here, and I hope to see more of you. :-)

Anonymous said...

Good blog. I'm an Atlanta Jew, only somewhat religious, but this new Jimmy Carter book has gotten me more interested in the Isreal-Palestinian issue.

Red Tulips, your arguments and comments are excellent and tend to agree with mine. I read the entire 'biglies.pdf' on frontpagemag to get more acquainted with the issues. It cites primary source material and even quotes many Muslim leaders. I'd be willing to read a similar Palestinian view of things--but it doesn't exist. Palestinian arguments tend to be based on propaganda and lies, whether it's tales of Zionist control of the world or 'massacres' where the number of dead is grossly inflated than the actual death count.

The thing that many people forget is that Israel is not even 100% Jewish. There are many successful Muslims therein, who would have their lives and livelihoods destroyed if the Palestinians had their way. First the palestinians would get to work on killing all Jews, destroying all synagogues and places of Jewish history, and then they would the entire economy and infrastructure to rubble.

Then they would turn their aggression to any western presence in the middle east and then expand and try to kill infidels in the rest of the world.

I'm genuinely AMAZED at the number of Jew-haters out there, particularly in academia and even Jimmy Carter, who use this conflict as a safe and trendy way to manifest their hatred. And of course these people have no opinions on conflicts elsewhere (Mugabe's reign in Zimbabwe, etc.). Only this Israel issue allows them to vent their hatred of Jews.

We all like to say 'never again' when referring to Naziism and the Holocaust, but it scares me to think that something could definitely happen again. Too many people are too lazy to spend an hour or two studying the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's much easier for them to buy into the Muslim propaganda. Never mind that these are the same people that bombed the trade center in 1991(?) and 2001. Never mind that these are the same people that worship the protocols of the elders of zion. Never mind that these are the same people that have committed atrocities while dressed as women (so they can cry when actual women are killed accidentally by Israeli troops).

In spite of the obvious, it is trendy to be on the side of the palestinians. This SCARES me...

Anonymous said...

meant to say they would reduce the economy to rubble...

Red Tulips said...

Anon:

Welcome to C4A, and I hope to see more of you.

Yes, it is trendy to side with the Palestinians, and that does scare me. It's important to note, however, that this is not REALLY siding with the Palestinians - rather, it sides with genociders who are themselves wiping out Palestinians.

Nizo said...

I realize I'm late, but I just discovered your blog. Feel free not to respond..

but:

Walid Shoebat? You can't be serious, or as we say in Arabic "Bil Mishmish".

As a Palestinian, I'm even harsher than you are when it comes to criticising the Palestinians.

Read:

http://nizos.blogspot.com/2007/02/drunken-ponderings-in-tub-with-argov.html

or

http://nizos.blogspot.com/2007/02/saw-of-islam.html

However, asking Palestinians to become like Walid Shoebat is like me asking Jews to Naturei-Kartaize themselves. It's patronizing and it implies that the only "good Arab" is the one who not only renounces terrorism but becomes an ardent zionist.

It reminds me of Islamists who claim that all of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf and that everything would be alright if Jews and Christians "just" convert.

Red Tulips said...

Nizo:

VERY fair point.

Perhaps I should say the Palestinians should "Irshad Manji"-ize themselves?

Manji has not rejected her Islam status. The same principle applies though, no?

Nizo said...

I read Manji's book when it came out. She's just another loud-mouthed opportunist who tows the "War of civilizations" line to get validation from the mainstream media.

Manji brings very little to the table, because what is needed isn't someone who will merely criticise Islam (Any beak-nosed lemur in a tailleur can write a book critical of Islam) but rather someone who has the credibility to affect change.

Furthermore, for the many valid points she does make, she loses credibility with her very poorly researched position on the Is-Pal conflict among other things.

For a pretty good analysis of Manji's jack of all trades posturing read:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=4624

You know something.. when I was younger and more naive, I used to be impressed by people like Manji. I've come to realize that you have to go into the mainstream and affect change from there. People on the lunatic fringe, like Manji, Finkelstein, Shoebat, Naturei-Karta etc.. only help to further polarize people.

Think of the parallel: Arabs loooove the lunatic fringe Rabbis who wave Palestinian flags and advocate the dismantlement of israel. Do those Rabbis have any credibility to go to Israel and actually improve the Palestinians' plight?

-----

There might not be a single role model or figure of moderation, but that's fine, change might come slowly and organically as a result of a sum of efforts of those people who are behind the scenes, working quietly to put an end to the current Chad Gadya cycle of violence.

Red Tulips said...

Nizos,

Right away, in the first paragraph under "Manji, the disinterested intellectual," the critique you gave is inaccurate. There is every reason to serve in the West Bank.

I cited such reasons here.

Then Zmag went on to inaccurately discuss Edward Said. Adil already deconstructed Said's nonscholarship here.

That said, I agree that Manji has no credibility. I agree there is no reformer with credibility. This is a real problem. But to compare her with the Neterei Karta is outrageous and offensive. She is not a traitor to her people. She does not go to the equivalent of Holocaust denial conferences for Muslims. She is not funded by the JDL (the Neterei Karta is funded, or has been funded, by the PLO). She actually is seeking to BETTER the state of Muslims, not lessen their state.

Critique her if you wish (even if your critique was inaccurate), but please do not compare her to the dregs of humanity.

Nizo said...

Red tulips,

The critique I gave was't necessarily inaccurate, it just happens to conflict with your view of Israel's presence in the West Bank.

It would be redundant for me to argue with you over the IDF's presence as well as the settlements because when it comes to that point we're diametrically opposed, and I doubt a couple of exchanges on a blog will truly make a difference.

As for the Manji-Naturei Karta comparison, there are also Arabs (perhaps not this one) who will say that the Naturei Karta are NOT traitors to their people because they advocate a one-state solution which in the eyes of many (in my opinion delusional) is the most just solution to the conflict.

Red Tulips, definitions of "traitors" and "patriots" are very subjective and there's no universal template.

On the subject of funding, if you're bringing up Naturei's funding by the PLO, I'll bring up Manji's funded visit to Israel by the Jewish Federation.

I know you will call it offensive if I compare the PLO with the JF, but at the end of the day, it is "the other side", and it does chip away at her credibility.

Red Tulips said...

Nizo,

We are in agreement that Manji is perceived as a traitor. But we are in disagreement over whether she actually is a traitor to her people.

The Naturei Karta do what they can to aid and abet those who wish to kill Jews. This is just a fact - a proven fact. (I mean, attending the Holocaust denial conference, being funded by Iran and the PLO, being linked with terror groups, doesn't get more clear cut!) They were excommunicated as Jews and are traitors to their people in the extreme sense of the word.

Irshad Manji is doing what she can to STOP Muslims from being killed, by fighting extremists. The JNF is hardly the PLO. Israel itself is pro-Arab! Lest we forget that Arab Israelis live a better life in Israel than the lives of Arabs across the Mideast. They have equal rights with Jews, and only lack the Law of Return. (there is subtle non-state discrimination, but can we agree that this form of discrimination is WORSE towards Palestinians in the rest of the Arab world?)

So my point is that Israel is pro-Arab, and thus Manji's trip to Israel should be seen as pro-Arab.

My question to you then is whether YOU see Manji as a traitor or not, not how she is perceived by others as.