Thursday, October 26, 2006
Are Jews secretly trying to elliminate Christianity from this nation?
Mr. Smarterthanyou said the following in a comment section on Jesus Camp and I think it deserves a closer inquiry:
There is an effort by many jews to supress Christianity, and in large part, it has been successful.
Abraham Foxman of the ADL recently complained that fundimentalists were trying to "Christianize" the US.
Well guess what buddy, we are a Christian nation. But the ADL, and the overwhelmingly jewish ACLU and "Americans for the separation of church and state" have been very successful at removing 10 commandment monuments (yes, I know Jews value this also), crosses on public land, public prayers, and even Christmas trees, nativity scenes and even Christmas cards hung on walls in schools and workplaces and gov't buildings.
Seems this 1% is having a huge effect, and are pissing off a bunch of Christians.
off topic, but did Jews and Jewish organizations attack Christianity in 1920's, 1930's Germany? I've always wondered how so many people in Europe could have supported the Holocost. Perhaps the feeling that their religion and culture were under constant, and effective attack by Jews was part of it? I know I feel that way, and most people in the US feel that way about these organizations, although most don't see it as religious, yet.
Let's examine what Mr. Smarterthanyou was saying in greater detail...
off topic, but did Jews and Jewish organizations attack Christianity in 1920's, 1930's Germany? I've always wondered how so many people in Europe could have supported the Holocost. Perhaps the feeling that their religion and culture were under constant, and effective attack by Jews was part of it? I know I feel that way, and most people in the US feel that way about these organizations, although most don't see it as religious, yet.
Given he earlier advocated the total annhiliation of all Palestinians, I would have to assume that by this statement, he was saying that he could see a justification for the Holocaust, because Jews were "attacking Christianity" in Europe.
That point of view is appalling and also ridiculously untrue.
Let's examine the other totally outlandish and utterly unsupported statement that he made...
However, Yes, there is an effort by many jews to supress Christianity, and in large part, it has been successful.
He 'proved' this by saying...
Well guess what buddy, we are a Christian nation. But the ADL, and the overwhelmingly jewish ACLU and "Americans for the separation of church and state" have been very successful at removing 10 commandment monuments (yes, I know Jews value this also), crosses on public land, public prayers, and even Christmas trees, nativity scenes and even Christmas cards hung on walls in schools and workplaces and gov't buildings.
Let's look at each and every example of the 'proof' that Jews are suppressing Christianity...
a) 10 commandment monuments - last I checked this is a Jewish as well as Christian belief. Moreover, a monument is not a religion. Whether or not a monument exists has nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is allowed to be practiced. The placement or lack thereof of a monument on public land does not affect anyone's ability to worship Christianity as they please. Hence, this is NOT 'suppressing Christianity' in any way.
Moreover, Ten commandments are NOT barred on public lands. It is okay if it is part of a general religious display. (rather than seen by itself)
See: Van Orden v. Perry. Given the Ten Commandments have not been barred from public lands (see the Supreme Court decision) then this drive to ban the Ten Commandments (which is not even only Christian, but is also Jewish) from public lands has not been 'successful.'
Next example:
b) Crosses on public land. Well, first of all, there is a little thing called the FIRST AMENDMENT. Our Founding Fathers were Deists, and not religious Christians. A cross on a public land signifies an association that the nation has with Christianity, when in fact this is a religiously pluralistic nation. Furthermore, the placement or lack thereof of a cross on a public land has nothing to do with your ability to worship Christianity. Of course, you could be an idol worshipper and need the cross to worship. But if you are, you most certainly are going against the very tenants of Christianity.
c) public prayers: Again, we are not a CHRISTIAN nation. We are a nation with a Christian heritage that is religiously pluralistic. Public prayer moves towards establishing an official religion, and is against the first amendment. But moreover, last I checked, you are not forbidden from praying in private. This is not evidence of suppression of Christianity.
d) Christmas trees: Sorry buddy, but you are wrong. Christmas trees are allowed across the nation on public ground.
e) nativity scenes: Again, you are somewhat wrong about the nativity scene. Allegheny County v. ACLU held that a creche scene with the words 'Glory to God in the Highest' staged by itself on public grounds is an impermissable establishment of religion. But the Supreme Court did not say all creches on public property is illegal.
f) Christmas cards: That is totally legal. You are going to have to cite a court case to back up this wild accusation that Christmas cards cannot be displayed.
I want to add that the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State stand againt all religions being tied with the government. The Allegheny case I earlier cited was in fact litigated by the ACLU, this supposedly 'Jewish' organization that you are so opposed to. This was a two part case, whereby the ACLU was against the public display of a creche and a menorah. In fact, the ACLU has gone after public displays of ALL religions. They also back the cases of freedom of religion - and will represent Christians, Jews, and Muslims in their drive towards freedom of religion.
Mr. Smarterthanyou has not proven one iota of a supposed 'Christian bias' by these organizations. Not one iota. He has also not proven that America is a Christian nation. Yes, America is primarily Christian. But it is NOT a nation RULED by Christianity. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT GREAT!
And most illogically of all, he was saying that somehow the ACLU/ADL/etc have been 'very successful' in their attempt to drive Christianity from the nation. Well, how exactly have they been successful if this nation is 95% Christian? This sounds like they have not exactly suppressed Christianity. What is a better measure of 'success' or 'failure' than the numbers of Christians in this nation? And given Christianity is on the RISE in this nation, I would say that if you defined the ACLU's goal as suppressing Christianity, then they have been incredibly UNsuccessful in that goal.
One final point. Mr. Smarterthanyou brought up the ADL/ACLU/Americans United for the Separation of Church and State and said three completely untrue statements about these organizations. He simultaneously said that these organizations are opposed to all forms of Christianity (as opposed to other religions), that they have been successful in their goal of driving Christianity from the nation, AND that they are Jewish organizations that represent Jews in any way.
The ACLU is an organization of secularists from all persuasions. My problem with it is that they often pick stupid, senseless, and symbolic cases that only serve to anger people, and do not further any real goal. They also will defend freedom of ALL religions, including Islamists and Neonazis. (most famously in the National Socialist Party v. Skokie) This case gave the right for Neonazis to march through a heavily Jewish neighborhood where many Holocaust survivors lived. The ACLU took up this case on 'freedom of religion' and 'right of assembly' grounds. I don't exactly see how this, one of the ACLU's most famous cases, advances Judaism in any way at all. So yes, I have a problem with the ACLU. But to claim that they have some sort of agenda of driving Christianity from the nation and that they have an anti-Christian bias (as opposed to other religions) is flat out untrue. Go to their website. Look at the cases they have taken up. You will see they FREQUENTLY take up cases on behalf of Christians seeking freedom of religion.
Do your homework prior to making these wild accusations.
Let's look at the board of directors on the ACLU.
The Executive Director of the ACLU is Anthony Romero - a Hispanic, and not a Jew! In fact, most of the board are not even Jewish!
Are Jews disproportionately driven to the ACLU/Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State? Yes. Do those organizations have some sort of secret Jewish cabal running them? Absolutely no. Implying otherwise, and that somehow Jews are secretly running this country, is one of the oldest forms of anti-semitism in the book. Moreover, these organizations are in no way representatives of the greater Jewish American community.
There is absolutely no Jewish 'conspiracy' to drive Christianity into the ground. The cases Mr. Smarterthanyou cited are either totally made up or flat out do not prove anything. This country, in any case, is not a 'Christian' nation, and last I checked, there was no religious test for office.
Next time wild and baseless claims are being hurled about, why not do a little research of the most basic of facts?
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18 comments:
I want to add the following:
America was not formed as a Christian nation. It was formed as a nation influenced by the Christian faith, influenced by Judeo-Christian values, and intent on providing for religious pluralism.
Any attempt to prove that somehow America was formed as a 'Christian nation' and that Christian tenets are supposed to be the guide of American decisionmaking is unsupported by both the constitution and the Framers' own Deist belief system.
I do not deny that the nation was formed with heavy influence from Christianity. Any proof that Christianity influenced the foundation of the nation is hence not relevant to this discussion.
Very nice rebuttal.
On the other hand, mr smarterthanyou is something of an easy target. It's remarkable that someone with his smartness quotient consistently espouses piffle. And that he manages to make his piffle so offensive.
Every time they whine and say that "seperation of church and state" is not mentioend anywhere in the constitution, tell them that neither is Jesus or the bible.
I once pressed a fundy on this, when he said the constitution mentions jesus. I asked where, and all he could come up with was the phrase "in the year of our lord."
Regarding the Christian foundations, you folks conveniently ignore the FACT that the Pilgrims were Protestants trying to get away from the corrupt Catholic church and the Church of England. Someone care to present eveidence of who signed our first 3 documents that were or were not Christian? And yes, we were heavily influenced by Christian faith, which atheists and jews are trying to eradicate.
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off topic, but did Jews and Jewish organizations attack Christianity in 1920’s, 1930’s Germany? I’ve always wondered how so many people in Europe could have supported the Holocost. Perhaps the feeling that their religion and culture were under constant, and effective attack by Jews was part of it? I know I feel that way, and most people in the US feel that way about these organizations, although most don’t see it as religious, yet.
Given he earlier advocated the total annhiliation of all Palestinians, I would have to assume that by this statement, he was saying that he could see a justification for the Holocaust, because Jews were “attacking Christianity” in Europe.
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It is just a question. Answer it, or not. I don’t know the answer. Is this what you call examining my point in detail?
"That point of view is appalling and also ridiculously untrue."
Let’s examine the other totally outlandish and utterly unsupported statement that he made...
However, Yes, there is an effort by many jews to supress Christianity, and in large part, it has been successful.
…
Let’s look at each and every example of the ‘proof’ that Jews are suppressing Christianity...
a) 10 commandment monuments - last I checked this is a Jewish as well as Christian belief. Moreover, a monument is not a religion. Whether or not a monument exists has nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is allowed to be practiced. The placement or lack thereof of a monument on public land does not affect anyone’s ability to worship Christianity as they please. Hence, this is NOT ‘suppressing Christianity’ in any way.
Moreover, Ten commandments are NOT barred on public lands. It is okay if it is part of a general religious display. (rather than seen by itself)
…
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BUT, Jews seem to be disproportionately represented among those attacking the commandments, right? My first post did not attempt to provide proof, just an argument. In this response, I have evidence for my arguments. Proof would probably require a tape recorder and bugs in some offices.
Ok, how about these cases?
http://www.acluga.org/press.releases/0507/barrow.county.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33407
Alabama Judge Moore was removed from office because he refused to remove the 10 commandments from his courthouse. ACLU sued him. This is suppressing Christian expression that was perfectly OK when our country started.
The ACLU also is leading the attack on the Boy Scouts, who expose kids to Christian values.
More anti Christian lawsuits/actions:
http://www.thomasmore.org/newslisting.html?NewsCatID=2
Anyone who thinks about the ACLU should read this:
http://www.stoptheaclu.com/
Particularly,
http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/09/23/how-the-aclu-censors-religious-expression/
Yes, monuments are not religion. But liberal atheists and jews are trying to eliminate anything that has to do with Christianity. Regarding the ACLU and Jewishness, it was founded by a bunch of communist Jews. I hate to read names and stereotype, but with the ACLU, yes, they put a gay Hispanic on top. But it looks like the president is a jew, and so is the Chief Legal Officer. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and treasonous, disgusting human being, was also the chief legal counsel for the ACLU. And yes, she is Jewish too. Cases seem to involve a disproportionate number of “steins” and “bergs”. Yes, sometimes they defend Nazi’s, but usually just to prove something. They take leftist cases, and they take Nazi cases. Very little in between. It sucks trying to make this argument, because I am not a rabid anti-semite. Also, it is dang hard to point out, based on a name in an article, who is jewish. But when you do get the quick blurb from the lawyer on TV, is sure seems to be a jew much more than 1% of the time.
Please don't ignore that jews like Steinaham, Allred, Dworkin, Tribe, Derschowitz etc have been LEADERS in trying to destroy our traditional culture. The 3 women mentioned have had a huge role in destroying the American family structure.
Communist origins of the ACLU:
http://stoptheaclu.com/index.php?s=communism+is+the+goal
Jews are twice as likely to support the ACLU than non-Jews in the US. Plus many other interesting tidbits showing how out of step Jews are compared to the general population of the US. Keep in mind that the opposing %ages include atheists too, so the numbers are wayyyy skewed.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl435.htm
Next example:
b) Crosses on public land. Well, first of all, there is a little thing called the FIRST AMENDMENT. Our Founding Fathers were Deists, and not religious Christians. A cross on a public land signifies an association that the nation has with Christianity, when in fact this is a religiously pluralistic nation. Furthermore, the placement or lack thereof of a cross on a public land has nothing to do with your ability to worship Christianity. Of course, you could be an idol worshipper and need the cross to worship. But if you are, you most certainly are going against the very tenants of Christianity.
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Trying to remove Christianity does not just mean preventing private prayer. It also includes shutting up Christians and preventing expressions of Christian faith wherever possible. It seems there is an effort by liberals to do everything possible to prevent Christianity from being portrayed as positive, if they even allow it to be portrayed at all. Links above highlight cases. Jews don’t want little kids to see Christianity in a favorable light. Heck, watch TV. You cannot deny that Hollywood is dominated by Jewish individuals, and that positive portrayals of Christians are few and far-between. Yet every other wedding in a movie is a jewish one. Unless the wedding gets screwed up, then it is always shown as a Christian joke. Oh yeah, the ACLU supports gay marriage, something that (non-unitarian) Christians oppose, and that has never been allowed nor even contemplated until recently.
c) public prayers: Again, we are not a CHRISTIAN nation. We are a nation with a Christian heritage that is religiously pluralistic. Public prayer moves towards establishing an official religion, and is against the first amendment. But moreover, last I checked, you are not forbidden from praying in private. This is not evidence of suppression of Christianity.
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Official religion is when you must obey the church or pay the church. No more, no less. Even the issue at hand, and Thomas Jefferson’s letter in response to it that liberals love to misquote show that.
http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/separationmyth.php
Again, we are being forced to hide public displays of Christianity that were common before WWII, when it seems were were flooded by jewish people who decided that the US would be a great place…. If not for all those damn Christians. The fact that the US had a Protestant work ethic, and Protestant morals made our nation great, and made us very welcoming to others (not perfect, but pretty damn good). Now those that came after our founding want to change things.
d) Christmas trees: Sorry buddy, but you are wrong. Christmas trees are allowed across the nation on public ground.
Really? Depends. Please note that constant threats of lawsuits have the same chilling impact of law, if enough people bow to the threat:
http://www.catholicleague.org/03press_releases/quarter4/031222_firehouse.htm
http://www.campusreportonline.net/main/articles.php?id=73
http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2004/sept04/psrsept04.html
e) nativity scenes: Again, you are somewhat wrong about the nativity scene. Allegheny County v. ACLU held that a creche scene with the words ‘Glory to God in the Highest’ staged by itself on public grounds is an impermissable establishment of religion. But the Supreme Court did not say all creches on public property is illegal.
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My point isn't how the judged eventually rule, although Jewish judges are more likely to rule with the liberals, the point is that Jews, disproportionately, are suing in the first place!!!
f) Christmas cards: That is totally legal. You are going to have to cite a court case to back up this wild accusation that Christmas cards cannot be displayed.
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Who said legal? Liberal atheists and jews are pressuring people and companies and schools to stop displaying them. I taught in Alaska for 2 years, and some of my coworkers had dealt with that in other schools, where an atheist or jew objected to cards in the teachers lobby. Often it isn't law, just fear of lawsuits and the jewish disposition to complaining coupled with ready access to liberal lawyers.
Now, as I said, it is dang hard to pick out every jewish person involved. But you and I both know, a very large % of atheists are self-identified jews. Even you see something severely wrong with your religion, yes?
King County, Washington
County executive Ron Sims sent a November memo to all King County employees required that all workplace holiday celebrations remain "religion-neutral." The memo referred to naming the celebration a 'Holiday Celebration' or 'Winter Celebration'; using general greetings such as 'Happy Holidays' or 'Holiday Greetings'. Mr. Sims simply didn't want people wish him a Merry Christmas!
Local chiropractor Sidney Stock and his wife, Jennifer, protests Christmas tree in Bellevue City Hall according to King County Journal. Never mind that City spokeswoman Barbara Ramey said the mostly unadorned Season of Sharing tree, as it is called, is designed to encourage people to donate gifts and cash for needy families. ``It doesn't make a bit of difference. No matter if it's called a giving tree or anything else, it is associated with a Christian holiday,'' said Sidney Stock, who describes himself as both an atheist and a committed Jew.
South Orange/Maplewood, New Jersey School District
The South Orange/Maplewood school district has banned playing the instrumental Christmas carols, songs mentioning Santa Claus are subject to the ban, as well. The school board tried to kill Christmas. According to the Newark Star-Ledger, Columbia High School brass ensemble would not be playing Christmas carols even though they were not going to sing the lyrics. The superintendent, Peter P. Horoschak said "Rather than try to respond to all the various religions and try to balance them, it's best to stay away from that and simply have a non-religious tone to them and have more of a seasonal tone." The music drew some complaints from residents, said Horoschak, but not an onslaught. Furthermore he said that printed programs for holiday concerts "must avoid graphics which refer to the holidays, such as Christmas trees and dreidels." In the South Orange/Maplewood School District, they celebrate a generic "holiday." The Board of Education is the governing body of the South Orange - Maplewood School District with responsibility for developing policy.
New York City School
The New York City school system excluded Christians from inclusiveness, in the name of sensitivity! New York City school banned religious symbols .... oh wait! The NYC school banned Christian-themed nativity scenes while simultaneously authorizing Jewish menorahs and Islamic crescents in public school hallways and classrooms. NYC school's discriminatory policy against Christian led to a court fight. So, the 2003 Becket Fund's "Ebenezer Award" goes to New York School System.
Plano Texas School District
Plano Texas School District bans Christmas colors! The school winter break parties cannot even use green and red colors. Since when do we live in a country where we don't even have freedom to use colors of our choice for parties?! Furthermore, students are prohibited from exchanging candy canes and pencils with religious messages on them, or writing “Merry Christmas” on greeting cards to U.S. soldiers! We wonder what kind of "leadership" there is within Plano Texas school district.
A hearing was scheduled on December 16, 2004 regarding a Plano School District policy that bans religious expression from the classroom. The federal judge, Paul Brown, ruled that Plano schools must allow students to hand out whatever religious messages they want at winter break parties! Sanity did prevail.
Mustang Oklahoma Public School
Mustang school official, Superintendent Karl Springer ordered removal of Christian symbols and music from Lakehoma elementary school's holiday program because of legal concerns. But he conveniently left in portions of the program that featured traditions such as Kwanzaa and Chanukah. Springer's preemption measure is a typical result of ignorance and fear when no challenges have been filed against the school district. We should advise Springer to review the Twelve Rules of Christmas
I want to add that the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State stand againt all religions being tied with the government. The Allegheny case I earlier cited was in fact litigated by the ACLU, this supposedly ‘Jewish’ organization that you are so opposed to. This was a two part case, whereby the ACLU was against the public display of a creche and a menorah. In fact, the ACLU has gone after public displays of ALL religions. They also back the cases of freedom of religion - and will represent Christians, Jews, and Muslims in their drive towards freedom of religion.
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Look, if 76% of Americans identify as Christian, every attempt to place other religions at parity is anti-Christian, because it disproportionately impacts us. Liberals say "If we honor Christianity (76% of the pop), we must honor Wicca (<1%), and Satanism too. SO we cannot honor any of them". Now that is a load of bull, and nothing but justification for shutting down Christians. When atheist jews get away with that argument, they smirk all the way to the coffee shop. Besides, you already covered Jew hating Jews. Why should it make a Christian happy if the Jew trying to clamp down on his religion also clamps down on Judaism?
I never said the US should be ruled by Christianity. That is a bullshit way to argue, on your part. But we are a nation formed by Christian belief, held together by Christian morality, and enjoy freedom from gov't that assumes that that we already have morality in common. Replace our Christian traditions with 100% secularism and you get---lawsuits replacing personal responsibility, a police state replacing personal responsibility, all kinds of problems that have to be solved, and cannot always be solved in the way that maximizes freedom.
Unless we make people wear the star, we cannot know for sure who is a jew and who isn't. But it is obvious that there are many jews out there who are diametrically opposed to traditional, Christian America.
I wonder if German people had a ACLU type organization trying to ban Christmas trees too.
Umm, I need formatting help, my urls are getting clipped. I did a paste from word.
Wow, liberals showing respect for a conservative who has been quite provocative!! Is this some kind of psychology trick to make me think liberals are not all mean and evil?
Thanks.
Mr. Smarterthanyou:
You gave this baseless speculation that Jews were seeking to destroy Germany, and then expect me to to respond to it? The accuation is as baseless as the one about Jews seeking to 'undermine' society now.
All you are pointing to is a desire for the ACLU, as opposed to 'Jews,' being against Establishment cases. I already linked you to the ACLU website that shows they take on a whole panoply of cases - for religious freedom and also against the Establishment of religion. They even have litigated cases about menorahs in the public square!
You have yet to show they have any particular CHRISTIAN bias. You have yet to show they have been effective in their goals.
You are just throwing around the old antisemitic libels of Jews running this country or Jews seeking to bring down Christianity, without explaining how this is so.
The Ten Commandments are not Christianity. Public prayer is not Christianity. Banning churchs is banning Christianity. The ACLU has never once, in its entire history, litigated a case to ban a church.
I have already stated on numerous occasions that of course America's foundation was influenced by the Christian faith. However, it was not ever supposed to be a 'Christian nation.' It was supposed to be a nation dedicated to religious pluralism, influenced by Judeo Christian values. This is what the first amendment is about.
My blog needs more readers. I wonder if mr. dumberthanyou will come read it and write 100 page responses if I mention his name on it?
red,
The ACLU is a tool of secular progressivism, which is a train of thought dominated by secular jews. The ACLU was founded by a communist jew, and it seems that socialist/athiest jews dominate it.
I pointed out plenty of cases. Sometimes they take cases that advance their agenda that seem to support Christians, but whatever they do, they do it ina way that promotes socialist goals, either directly, or indirectly by breaking down religion, weakening our military, or weakening families, in keeping with the words of their founder "Communism is the goal". I gave you a link to his words.
The US is overwhelmingly Christian, the ACLU is trying to drive Christianity into the closet, they are trying to eliminate Christian (or any) morals from our laws and society. If they also hate and attack other religions, that doesn't really make them look any better in my book. My original intent was to argue that I wondered if Jews pissed off German Christians by pulling the same shit that they are pulling in the US.
It also doesn't make me thankful that we opened our arms to ungrateful jews after WWII who seem intent on turning us into an atheist nation, just because they cannot stand themselves and the religion that let them down.
Perhaps you can tell me an alternative reason why it is near-unanimous among republicans to despise the ACLU? Are we all stupid and hateful? We love to opress people?
Well, this is leaning more and more towards blatant anti semitism and not the usual veiled form of anti semitism that the righties usually exhibit.
Oh yes jason, Good Liberal!! *pats poodle on head*
Rather than just pull a big bad word out of your hat, why not actually deal with the issues?
"However, Yes, there is an effort by many jews to supress Christianity, and in large part, it has been successful".
What, Mr. Smarterthanyou, qualifies as evidence of success? The fact that church attedance rates are higher or as high than they have been in years? The fact that our President is a "born-again" Evangelical Christian? The fact that Christians have been hauled off into wagons with the word "Christian" branded onto their skin? (Ooops, they haven't been). The fact that the White House's "Office of Faith-Based Initiatives" does not include one, single non-Christian representative? The fact that Jews pelt Christians with eggs, tomatoes and assorted other stenches while these people on their way to mass, shouting "Thought Killer"?
I think part of the problem here is that when you state the word "Christianity," you don't mean the practice of Christianity as such. You mean the right of Christians to prohibit others in their ability to practice their religion without fear or intimidation. Under this latter iinterpretation of the word "Christian", then I suppose I must bow to your self-professed brilliance. Jews, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, and various assorted what you would call pieces of flotsam, by merely attempting to practice their religion, represent the fact that the sum total of Christianity practice has diminished each time one of these other undesirable groups so practices their faith. And, according to you, a diminution in the practice of Christianity necessarily implies an intent on the part of someone to bring about that result. A result can happen without a conscious desire to bring about that result. So fight on, beleaguered white Christian male! The two percent of the country that is Jewish somehow, through a mechanism you have not explained, has managed to prevent you from practicing your religion, so you say. If practicing your religion includes the absolute right to genuflect in front of graven images in public courthouses, I might say that you have a point. If it hadn't occurred to you that the "Protestant work ethic" is no longer followed by many Protestants, and that non-Protestants are also hardworking people who do not attempt to persuade Protestants from practicing that ethic, I'd agree too. If the Boy Scouts were founded as a Christian organization, I might agree with you too; the Scouts were not founded as a Christian organization and the Scout oath contains no reference to Christianity. That the group may have been founded by Christians does not mean it is "Christian"; if such logic were to hold the day, then Jews would not be permitted to attend the Scouts, as I did for many years, and the Scouts would not have an "Aleph" award, given to Jewish scouts who excel at community service(Christian scouts can get their own Christian-oriented medals, too; I suppose that you think the fact that the Jewish scouts can get their own medals is the result of some Jewish/communist/ACLU conspiracy that has infiltrated an organization that is so NOT worried about lawsuits that it didn't decide it didn't include gay scoutmasters until a bunch of decent Christian folks told it either to get rid of the gays or these folks would no longer give it money. The President of the United States is the honorary President of the Boy Scouts. This must bother you, given the fact that Congress created the law granting the President that title and that Congress cannot create a national religion).
Re: your statement "Jews seem to be disproportionately represented among those attacking the commandments, right?", I don't know. I have to actually summom statistics rather than bug offices to verify whether such facts are true. Many Christians are disproportinately represented among those shoving the commandments in other people's faces while not following them. Where's my proof? Check out the websites that track Congressional scandals.
"Alabama Judge Moore was removed from office because he refused to remove the 10 commandments from his courthouse. ACLU sued him. This is suppressing Christian expression that was perfectly OK when our country started". The first sentence is true. By the way, the ACLU group was not the only group to sue him. He was sued by Christian groups as well (not "real" Christians to you, though, since to you, a Christian MUST act in exactly the way you believe they should-your way). I never knew that the Ten Commandments were an expression of "Christian expression". I'm sure that Moses, were he alive, would be keenly interested in this assertion.
"More anti Christian lawsuits/actions:
http://www.thomasmore.org/newslisting.html?NewsCatID=2". I find it refreshing that you could find a site so thoroughly unpartisan as the Thomas More Center to back up this statement. Next, you'll be telling me there's a war on Christmas and cite that good Christian Bill O'Reilly as your "proof".
"Regarding the ACLU and Jewishness, it was founded by a bunch of communist Jews. I hate to read names and stereotype, but with the ACLU, yes, they put a gay Hispanic on top. But it looks like the president is a jew, and so is the Chief Legal Officer. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and treasonous, disgusting human being, was also the chief legal counsel for the ACLU. And yes, she is Jewish too. Cases seem to involve a disproportionate number of “steins” and “bergs”. Yes, sometimes they defend Nazi’s, but usually just to prove something. They take leftist cases, and they take Nazi cases. Very little in between".
By the way, the KKK was founded by a bunch of Protestant Christians, who as far as I know, may consider you an "undesirable," just as you take it for granted that the word "gay" (and Hispanic) implies something "evil", rather than descriptive.
If you had read the Constitution, you wouldn't call Ruth Bader Ginsburg treasonous. I can even show you the provision of the Constitution that defines treason and can point you to writings showing how our deistic Framers interpreted the word, but I doubt you'd want to read them. It might require thinking, like remote controls require batteries. The "thing" the ACLU tries to prove when it takes Nazi cases is that freedom of speech and expression applies to everyone. Freedom for a tax-exempt organization like a church to compel me to, as a taxpayer, give it money so it can put a cross on my private property (no doubt if a law were passed banning such an act, you'd consider it suppression of the right to practice Christianity), is freedom that doesn't exist.
I suppose you are correct, even though you cite no evidence, for your proposition that "Jews are how out of step compared to the general population of the US". Jewish people, as are oother minority (non, white-Anglo Saxon male Christians with a persecution complex) are more solicitous of protecting people's civil rights (rights having nothing to do with religion). You consider this an induspitably bad thing. I don't. That we disagree is not evidence my my trying to suppress you from practicing your religion. It seems to me that the mere fact that I and others think differently from you is evidence that I am trying to suppress your ability to practice your religion. Since when did the majority religion in this country, backed by a President, Congress and Supreme Court of like majority, become so spineless and cowardly?
"It sucks trying to make this argument, because I am not a rabid anti-semite". I agree with you there. To call you such would be to inflame you to the point of exciting you. You're not a rabid anti-Semite. You're simply a banal little hater whose hatred includes hatred of Jews simply because they don't think like you. How banal, as I said.
"But when you do get the quick blurb from the lawyer on TV, is sure seems to be a jew much more than 1% of the time". What does this mean? Are Jews also conspiring to keep Christians like you out of the legal profession? Is this part of our general effort to conspire to prevent you from practicing your religion in general? Why does it matter to you that Jews are "disproportionately" represented among the legal profession, since according to you, that profession is despicable simply because people who aren't like you are in it? Would you rather no Jews be in the legal profession? If you got your way, you'd be unable to attack two different things (the profession and the Jews), and I'd seriously worry about the effect this inability would have on your health, such as it is.
"Official religion is when you must obey the church or pay the church". Since I wasn't alive when the Founding Fathers argued over exactly what the First Amendment means, and since the record of the debate on this subject is extraordinarily short, I'm afraid I cannot speak for what the people who founded the country meant by "establishment of religion," as you can, which is fine with me, because I don't need to pretend I have a direct pipeline to the Framers to make an argument.
"Liberal atheists and jews are pressuring people and companies and schools to stop displaying them. I taught in Alaska for 2 years, and some of my coworkers had dealt with that in other schools, where an atheist or jew objected to cards in the teachers lobby. Often it isn't law, just fear of lawsuits and the jewish disposition to complaining coupled with ready access to liberal lawyers". Thank you for the anecdotal evidence, but even assuming it's true, you really shoot yourself in the foot when you say the point isn't "how the judges ultimately end up ruling". It is if your argument is that Jews are responsible for suppression of Christian expression. Jews account for a minority of judges, as do atheists. No doubt this explains why the courts make so many decisions hostile to Christianity - decisions which you've abundantly cited.
I know - you say the problem isn't the result of the lawsuit - it's the "fear" that Jews put into the hearts of Godly Christians by.... threatening to sue. What's the matter with you people? Are you unable to fight back and defend yourselves? Or would you rather give in to the "fear" so you can claim you are being intimidated?
I appreciate how you save your big guns for last, when you cite isolated instances of alleged examples of Jewish mafia behavior resulting in schools deciding to not, as you would call it, fully partake of the Christian tradition. The Plano example, by the way, shows that judges, contrary to your point, still protect Christmas as much now as ever. You left out how judges ruled on your other examples... Curious.... No doubt if a judge had upheld the abomination of not being able to drag a baby Jesus into a classroom, such a liberal Jewish atheist communist judge's decision would surely have caught your attention and demanded your reportage, no? Silence truly does speak volumes. Your five examples, which may or may not be true, truly have convinced me that Christianity is dead. Congratuations!
"Springer's preemption measure is a typical result of ignorance" - well, buddy, you've finally said something I agree with, but why or how is a Christian's ignorance and fear MY persecution? If you guys are so worried that Jews are trying to block you from practicing your religion, just ask your Representatives and Senators to pass more laws preserving your right to do the same. I mean, some of you - a few of you - have not given in to the "fear" - Missouri is on the verge of passing a measure declaring Christianity as the "official religion of the state". Surely, this measure is not the result of a frightened people. Some choose to be "frightened" to develop their persecution complex; some act like they are in reality by realizing that they in fact have nothing to fear. Either way, I fail to see how your claims of global suppression of Christianity by Jews can be verified. How, as a logistical matter, are we able to accomplish this, assuming Christians fight back? Is it because of our hook noses? Our "lawyering"? (which has not impressed the five Catholic males now sitting on the Supreme Court)? Is it YOUR being the victim of hate crimes, of being lynched, of having physical access to your church blocked? Are you unable to go to the bathroom during the public school day to pray your little heart out? To go to an after-school Christian club on school property financed by Jews' taxpayer dollars? Can you not buy your Christmas trees because the evil Jewish merchants from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have cornered the market on winter lumber? What is it, anyway? Is the suppression because of the mighty ACLU, which has been dutifully prohibited from monitoring how terrorist suspects are being treated and which is so effective in getting all of Bush's faith-based initiatives and "terror measures" overturned that you must now pray in secret and must forsake your right to watch Christian snuff films?
"Look, if 76% of Americans identify as Christian, every attempt to place other religions at parity is anti-Christian, because it disproportionately impacts us. Liberals say "If we honor Christianity (76% of the pop), we must honor Wicca (<1%), and Satanism too. SO we cannot honor any of them".
If every other religion were at parity, then Christianity would account for about .0001 percent of the "religious honor" bestowed upon all religious groups, because there are close to 10,000 religions in the U.S. That you and I have never heard of these other groups proves that the so-called "parity" of which you speak is absurd. That a law (and I'm talking about a hypothetical law here, because no suuch law exists) may disproportionately impact a group does not mean the law itentionally discriminates against a group (if the government adminsters a test which white people pass at 100% rate and blacks pass at a 50% rate, the law "disproportinately impacts" blacks but it is not necessarily racist, because one must show there was an intent to obtain the impact. Notably missing from yur list of outcasts are any actual statements by Jewish people saying, "Let's go out and suppress the Christians". I know - such statements aren't needed, right? But when a Pat Robertson clone says, "God does not hear the prayers of a Jew," you probably take that as evidence of suppression of Christianity too, simply because the clone, by having to make the statement, was acting defensively as a result of being suppressed. What can I say? By the way, these kinds of statements are never condemned. If Jews were that powerful, I think the Falwells, Robertson, Dobsons, LaHates, and their ilk wouldn't even be on te air anymore - let alone be able to maintain multi-billion dollar empires - the surest indication of suppression yet! And, since Dobson and others like Rick Warren continuously gain new followers, the suppression must be INCREASING! Since laws are being considered and passed every day requiring stickers to be placed in textbooks saying evolution is fantasy, that Christian pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications to undesirables, and so on, I can only conclude that Christians really are being suppressed!)
"Why should it make a Christian happy if the Jew trying to clamp down on his religion also clamps down on Judaism?" - why should it, indeed, when your mind is so preoccupied with hatred that you're incapable of registering happiness.
"Replace our Christian traditions with 100% secularism and you get---lawsuits replacing personal responsibility, a police state replacing personal responsibility, all kinds of problems that have to be solved, and cannot always be solved in the way that maximizes freedom". Let's look at what America looks like now. Christians (as well as people of all religions) filing frivolous lawsuits, "all kinds of problems that have to be solved" (that comment is so nebulously asinine that I can claim it too), and a state of affairs where freedom is not always maximized (according to you, your freedom is not maximized, because you are suppressed). So in other words even with your Christian traditions in place, your bones to pick are still loaded with rotten -er, fresh - meat.
"Unless we make people wear the star, we cannot know for sure who is a jew and who isn't". Why don't you petition your Representatives and Senators to force Jews to do this? After all, Christians in America have extensive experience with being branded by the government, so I'm sure it would be OK for Jews to do it too!
"But it is obvious that there are many jews out there who are diametrically opposed to traditional, Christian America".
This statement, if not true, does not mean you are being suppressed. You want people to THINK exactly as you do, even though you cannot stand these people. Would your opinion of them improve if they thought as you did? How can that be, if these people, by the simple fact that they are Jews, are trying to suppress you? Our existence, after all, is your suppression.
It must be difficult - the yoke of suffering you can't cast off. Why, it reminds me of the problems faced by Christian missionaries in Asia when the filthy savages would not convert. Such burdens, they had, in failing to subjugate their inferiors, that they.... just had to kill them when they felt "threatened" by them when the Christians realized they were not alone in the universe. Rudyard Kipling understood your burden, and would have empathized. As a matter of fact, he did:
Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.
Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.
Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.
Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.
Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"
Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.
Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!
Fight on, angry repressed white Christian male! Take up the burden and ye shall no longer be suppressed!
Because I don't see you putting any forth, all you're doing is lying.
Steven, like many liberals, you think you cannot be labled. But you can. You are a flaming liberal.
Liberals LOVE to blur distinctions. That's why yelling at a woman is now domestic violence, making some muslim wear panties is torture, regret is now a health reason to have a partial birth abortion, rioting muslisms are referred to as "youths" heck, "buyer's remorse" is now reason to accuse someone of "date rape", and we may never really know what the meaning of "is" is.
Remember how liberals were called "pinkos" and "reds" because they supported communism and socialism over the American way? Now the media did a switcheroo with the "red state, blue state" thing?
It's all part of the liberal way of thinking; deception and distiction blurring.
So enjoy pretending that you are not "lableable", as you run around saying what liberals say, living how liberals live, thinking how liberals think.
It is funny though, I can practically accuse jews of asking the Nazis to exterminate them, and liberals and liberal jews have a decent willingness to debate.
I dare say gay men are promiscuous and not really into marriage, and the hair on every feminist's leg for 1,000 miles stand straight up in anger.
Interesting priorities.
Mr. Smarterthanyou:
Your last comment did not even attempt to answer entercenter.
I take it you admit you are wrong in your silence.
If he can summarize his argument, omit the crappy poetry, and otherwise attempt to stick to his points without filling in with endless bullshit, maybe I could stand to actually read it.
But the few actual "points" that he included are crap. 10,000 religions in the US? Why argue with someone who can say something that is obviously so wrong?
Mr. Smarterthanyou:
Entercenter went through all your 'points' one by one and demolished them.
And yes, there are in fact thousands of religions in the United States. Here is an abridged list of the most popular religious institutions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
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