72 Virgins
Amusing video I found on Sandmonkey, where a stand up comedian wonders how the women in Islamic countries must feel to be one of the 72 virgins in the afterlife. Very funny!
Women in Islam are allowed to : Dance, sing, read, wirte, go out, go to school, to university, studt ANY specialty and do anythng they want to.
the stupid systems that we see in Saudi Arabia and Iran are far from Islam, though they pretend to be Islamic states..the same story with Israel, it pretends to be democratic while in fact we see racism and descrimination in every aspect of daily life.
A) That was a joke. I similarly had a joke about Jews earlier. See: http://cultureforall.blogspot.com/2006/02/israelis-launch-their-own-cartoon.html
B) Israel is a democratic state, and the one democracy in the Middle East. You know you are wrong.
As far as Iran/Saudi Arabia goes - they certainly represent themselves as Islamic. I don't see masses of people protesting that. Take back your religion if you think otherwise.
And even in "moderate" Muslim nations, women are not granted full rights with men. Hell, even wearing the hijab is an insult - why is it that women have to cover themselves up, and men don't?
Though I want to add that Israelis are NOT racist, or should I say, not any more racist than Western Europe of the US, if you use that as a benchmark. Israelis only desire protection from terror. That in and of itself is completely understandable and NOT indicative of racism.
Ive just been busy so i couldnt answer or comment...
Render : /Just to point out that Osaid works at one of five hospitals in Hebron.He's well aware of the dual-use ambulances/weapons carriers. He's also well aware that Hebrons hospitals don't treat Jews. One of the leading Islamist terrorists is a pediatrition. A doctor of children is also a mass murderer. ...And Osaid still has nothing to say about cut and pasting straight from neo-nazi websites./
One of FIVE hospitals..waw ! In hebron there has never been any incidence where ambulances where used for non medical reasons. If you have any claims PROVE them NOW.
Who told you that Hospitals in hebron does not treat jews ?? And by the way, those ambulances you talk about were engaged in more than one occassion in helping settlers or soldiers in road accidents in road 60. Keep that in mind.
/Though Osaid's comments are clearly not about facts but an attempt to slander Israel - ironic Osaid, how can you condemn any country for being "undemocratic" when the PLO/Hamas gangland is not a democracy - it doesn't even have freedom of the press - when Jordan is not a democracy, when Egypt is being run by a secular dictator and could be taken over by the MB soon, when Iran, Saudi, Syria and Iraq (Prior to US intervention) - are all tyrannies.../
I will bring you the prrof that Israel is not a democracy..calm down.
Oleh.. I dont want to talk about any religion. Go ask some experts.
and Render : Slavery ?? Slavery is being practiced in your DEMOCRATIC state of israel ; it has a world RECORD for being the last OCCUPIER in the history of human life ( aside from the recent American occupation to Iraq )...
Israel is not an "occupier" of foreign land. And even accepting your NON REALITY of Israel as occupier, Palestinians are not SLAVES. They do not have full citizenship rights with Israelis, but THEY ARE AT WAR WITH ISRAEL.
Your non logic is stunning.
I do not have any proof of Hebron and ambulances in specifically, and I am too tired to go get it, so I will let Render have a go at that one. However, there is ample proof that in fact Red Crescent ambulences have been used to transport suicide bombers and weaponry.
/...Israel is not an "occupier" of foreign land. And even accepting your NON REALITY of Israel as occupier, Palestinians are not SLAVES. They do not have full citizenship rights with Israelis, but THEY ARE AT WAR WITH ISRAEL.../
Miss R : Did you realy write this ?/ Do you believe it ?? You are not occupiers ?? what r u doing in the west bank then ?? just answer me regarding the occupation part and lets put a start to this argument and agree on one thing at least ; occupation or what ?
Occupating implies Israel is there unlawfully. As I explained on numerous occasions, the West Bank is legitimately Israel's land. They are no more "occupying" the West Bank than they are anywhere else.
That said, I am aware that most likely the land will be Palestinian eventually, if the Palestinians ever get their shit together and can legitimately declare an acceptance of the mainland of Israel, and that they will NOT enact terror against Israel.
Steven : I looked at the link you provided. Apparently on of the gunmen was shot in his hand but another 4 militants managed to get on with him and escapef rom that place..
this was done with the Un's ambulance approval?? Did the ambulance driver ask them to get over ? they just got over, and imagine what might happen if the driver and the medic asked them to gett off.
Still..this is not a proof that our ambulances are supporting or transporting ammunition and militants.
interesting though. What is more interesting is that IDF targeted many ambulances claiming that this was a proof that palestinian ambulances do carry militants.
this is sad. The driver couldnt have done anythning, though.
Steven :
dont quote me while talking with Miss R, she has extreme thoughts and she is denying very basic truths and facts about the israeli palestinian conflict. Your quote and comments was not logical, am afraid.
a point to add ; israel is a much more better place to live in than so many other places in the mid east or the whole arab world. That is a fact that i know very well. and I dont feel that i should hide, too.
You should know that i am not in a position that allows me to speak freely about anyhing or anyone( u knonw wt i mean very well). consult Raccoon with that !
Anyway.. Israel is not trating the people of the west bank as people. It is using collective punishment and almost the same mentality of Saddam and others to deal with us.
again, lets not argue about religions. Both Miss R and Render were srong, and rude too. I do not criticize any religion nor do I believe that criticizing judaism or christianity or islam will bring any good to any one. i do not , also, have any criticizm to judaism or christianity, they are, as well as islam, religions and you either believe in religions or not. if you do believe in a religion you should respect oher religions, if you dont then you should just shut up ( render and miss r ) and not starting making fun of other peoples beliefs. Miss r and slender you should both appologize for your previous comments which i view as opposing and criticizing to religions ( all, including judaism ).
Miss R; /..Occupating implies Israel is there unlawfully. As I explained on numerous occasions, the West Bank is legitimately Israel's land../
What about UN resolutions, the same Un that legitimately gave you the right to establish your state in 1948, stating that Israel's presence in the west bank is illegal, is and it is an occupation / what about UN's resolutions about the rights of refugees ?
Instead of screaming my views on Islam are "racist" or "wrong," why not DISPROVE THEM??? Oh right, you can't. I didn't say Islam as a mere concept was wrong, but I did say that Islam the reality has perpetuated brutality upon the world. Not all Muslims are bad, and many are great people. But terrorists quote directly from the Koran, and I would like to add that Iran and Saudi Arabia call themselves ISLAMIC NATIONS, and claim to follow the word of Allah. If you feel that this is NOT Islam or a derivation of Islam, then make a big stink. Start rallying people to take back your religion. Oh right, anyone who does anything like that has a fatwa against them and fears death.
And I might add that I am in agreement re: Christianity - five hundred years ago! Christianity has since had a reformation, and Islam has not. Christians do not go about beheading people, claiming Jesus made them do it, and those who do are extremely ostracized and punished under the law. As far as Jews, they never had their own nation until recently (nor the power to effectuate anything, as a result), and Israel actually abides by extremely high human rights standards.
You take offense to what I have to say, and then do not disprove me or Render.
Re: the UN resolutions, I gave you an answer on your blog, but I will copy/paste...
The UN of 1947 is not the UN today. Today, almost every nation in the world is in the UN, including various genocidal nations such as Sudan, and extreme human rights violators, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. They have delegitimized what was once a legitimate institution of nations.
You have not disproven my claim re: the abstentee landlords. Zionists do not say their claim rests SOLELY on buying land lawfully. They say it is twofold - bibical, and also from having legitimately purchased land.
In 1948, instead of accepting a two state solution, Palestinians left Israel on their own in order to wage war upon the nation. That means they GAVE UP any right they had to the land, once they left. Those who stayed are now full Israeli citizens, called Israeli Arabs.
The fact is Israel did NOT "steal" land, and I might add, the Arabs DID steal Jewish land. When Israel was partitioned, any land belonging to Jews in the West Bank was immediately annexed to Jordan, who unlawfully took over the West Bank instead of giving the Palestinians their own state. (which they never had previously, incidently - Palestinians really are "Trans Jordanians," if one wanted to be accurate)
If you do not accept the basic reality of how Israel was formed, then I must conclude that you do not believe in the State of Israel and do not recognize Israel's right to exist. Please prove me wrong here.
But if that is in fact an accurate representation of your views, you are exactly part of the problem, and perpetuating the conflict.
Now for some additional facts...
In 1967, Israel, in a fight the involved their very right to exist, won the land of the West Bank, Gaza, and Sinai. In an unprecedanted response, Israel immediately attempted to turn over the land back to Egypt and Jordan - on one condition. Accept Israel's right to exist, and do not wage war upon Israel anymore. This was refused. The 1968 resolution basically stated that Israel should give back the land, but had no teeth to it, and did not declare Israel's actions unlawful, as it would have flown in the face of international precedant to do so, given international precedant. Since then, the UN has abandoned all pretext of treating Israel fairly, and, with genocidal member nations, have issued bullshit resolutions against Israel with zero logic whatsoever.
Perversely, this gives Israel every incentive to do whatever the fuck it wants, since they seem to get UN resolutions NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, GOOD OR BAD.
Osaid: There will be no further direct communication between us.
===
“Sunday, March 29 Dianne Roe, Kathleen Kern, Rich Meyer and Benno Barg had worship in the al Atrash family tent. Osaid Rasheed, a former student of Kern's, came along to translate and for the first time, Wilaa' al Atrash (14) was able to fully describe what had happened to her family on Sunday, March 22nd. She said that she felt like dying after seeing her parents, brothers and sisters get hit by the soldiers.”
-I suspect by now some, or most of you have figured out Osaids affliation with CPT?
-Osaid is a “former” student of Kathleen Kern, of CPT.
“CPT activities related to the Arab-Israeli conflict began in 1992, when the organization dispatched "violence reduction workers" to Palestinian towns, in close coordination with political leaders such as the mayor of Hebron. Best known for "direct action" sabotage of foreign militaries, CPT's official motto is "Getting in the Way," a skill it honed interfering with Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers. The number of CPT missions in support of Palestinians has grown steadily over time, now constituting half of the organization's worldwide activity. CPT cooperates with, shares personnel with, and works alongside the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and is particularly active in Hebron.”
-Members of both CPT and the ISM have been repeatedly caught aiding and abetting terrorists and suicide bombers. This is hardly “non-violent.”
===
-The very first “interesting” link in Osaids Palestine vs Israel blog is for one Norman Finkelstein. A Holocaust denier and long-time friend of Nazi’s, I call Finkelstein a modern day kapo, and with good reasons. Finkelstein is one of the neo-nazi’s that lost a lawsuit against Deborah Lipstadt, who then wrote a very good book about the subject.
“Denying the Holocaust – The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. FreePress 1993.”
===
"You should know that i am not in a position that allows me to speak freely about anyhing or anyone (u knonw wt i mean very well). consult Raccoon with that!"
-This worries me. What Osaid is saying in his various posts across the web, may not be what Osaid is actually thinking…or allowed to think and write.
-Moderation is generally not found in the home environment.
-You’ll note that Osaid, who has repeatedly inflated the already inflated UN Palestinian refugee count from the “official” 500,000 all the way up to 750,000, (750,000 is the total number of all persons reported in the last British Mandate census of 1931), has yet to acknowledge the presence of 800,000 Jewish refugees, in Israel, from Muslim nations.
-Jews don’t use Highway 60, (Jerusalem to Hebron), very often. I’m told it isn’t safe.
===
-Ambulance weapons carriers? Not just Hebron, all over the West Bank and Gaza.
-The second two links have lots of pretty pictures.
-On Feb. 8th, 2006 the UN’s Temporary International Presence in Hebron (TIPH), established shortly after Baruch Goldsteins 1994 murder of 29 Muslims at prayer, withdrew after Palestinian attacks on their headquarters. The Palestinians were angered by the cartoons…
===
-I’m not sure how the solution can be much simpler. It’s only three words…
Steven, I'd imagine the Finklestein site is where the blood libel stuff came from. It's even in the same order of presentation.
Not sure what happened with the INS and MFA links, (either blogger doesn't like transfers from Word, or blogger doesn't like really long addresses), but searching for "Palestinian ambulances" on either links homepage opens up a lot of hits. A lot, going back quite a ways...
I suppose I could see a point about the driver in that video you linked not having a choice in the matter, once. And only if, there was a logical reason for the two ambulances being there, before the action began in the first place. When the IED was planted.
WOW. Just WOW. I didn't think to look up information on Osaid Rasheed on the internet. What you found is both troubling and yet not very surprising. Thank you for your contribution, it was invaluable.
For the record, the link Render provided did not actually have the quote he listed. I think that was an accident, however, because CPT's own website has that very quote.
Ahhhh... I don't like it. React to things Osaid writes i/o undermining his credibility by trying to make him look suspicious. So what if he's tied up with that stupid organization? The core of this conflict is that we think different from each-other, so let's just concentrate on THAT.
Osaid, you're wrong. In Islam it's forbidden to hear music, dance and sing. At least for the religious followers - I'm on a dutch forum who's posters are almost all muslim and they keep on bringing up the passages in the Quran forbidding this. Not that everybody sticks to it of course, but in origin it's forbidden.
I don't know if you're aware of the calling off of one or another music festival in Jenin or Ramallah (I believe it was the latter) by the Hamas, where people contributing to this festival were very angry about?
Racism and discrimination exists under every form of government - but in a democracy like Israel it can be addressed freely, without fearing for your life. There's a whole lot of difference in that between the PA and Israel, as I'm sure you know.
So many people are so CONVINCED that somehow Jews lived in peaceful coexistence with Arabs for centuries under Arab rule, when the truth is they were treated like like second class citizens, and there was peace only when they accepted their place in society.
No, I meant as a seperate post. I think it deserves its own seperate discussion. What you wrote was EXTREMELY spot on, and I would like as many people to see it. :-)
I am not killing the discussion. Rather, I believe it enhances the discussion to understand why someone is misciting facts and misrepresenting his opinions.
Steven - July 08, 2006 7:11 AM - "In this case though I think it is important to know the person we are talking to as Osaid seems to have been lying to me and others for several months now." -
Steven, you could also just ask Osaid how he can explain such controversial thoughts. Maybe for him it makes sense. I myself am a person who is hardly ever understood by "conventional sides" because in my head the rationality doesn't seem to follow what other people see as logical. So, why don't you just give Osaid the benefit of the doubt?
of course! it is his Osaid's background and actions too. we're supposed to be on different sides of the fence, remember?
it is only logical to me that everything is seen from one's own perspective and the perspective of someone else can never be understood completely so accusing is for me NOT the way to discuss subjects, rather it works deterring and gap-activating.
No one is killing any discussion. However, Osaid has been misrepresenting who he is. He said he is a peace worker, when he in fact worked for an organization that supports terrorists. This means that extra skepticism should be used when reading his comments, so YES, it is important to know Osaid's background - not to kill discussion, but rather to enhance it.
Miss R. an organization that supports terrorists - but they don't proclaim themselves as such, so it is very much possible that under "terrorists" - Osaid understands something quite different than you (or me).
Steven, I don't know about the correspondence between yourselves, and what has been said and what not, but don't you think you should -at least- ASK how something controversial in your eyes makes sense for Osaid?
===================
Sorry guys, but I see so many times that only the tone of discussions are causing opponents to become more and more radical in their own views i/o trying to link to each-other by HUMAN (and thus in respectful manner) interaction.
I'm afraid this is what will be happening here again...
I welcome Osaid to post here, despite what was revealed about his past.
Tsedek, I hope you continue to post here as well. I welcome a diversity of opinions, and you have been able to show me different sides to things in quite an invaluable way.
Controversial thinking is at the edge of the conflict.
Get this picture:
In an Israeli prison some Palestinian youngsters are being asked if they regret having done what they did (serving as walking ticking bombs for those terrorgroups trying to make it into Israel for example).
Almost all of them answer: "no.
"Would you do it again then?"
"Yes" ....
Some time later they're being asked about the classes they take in prison and what would they like to do with their education and what to become..................
. . . . . . . . With eyes that shine they get excited and start telling the interviewer how they'd like to become doctors, engineers, shoemakers (even haha).... So excited and full of dreams about their future - that, in one second they also would throw out of the window by blowing themselves up.
This is just an example - logic is not always there, but it IS important to keep on talking and stay polite, because that's the only ONLY straw where people can reach recognition in the end....
I just view the information as reason for perspective, and to increase skepticism of Osaid.
I do not think the talking should stop. I hope Osaid continues to post here, if he wants to. I would like to continue the dialogue, even if we do get heated at times. I actually have quite enjoyed the back and forth.
The art of negotiation begins with knowing ones opponent. If ones opponents only negotiating point begins and ends with ones death, well…
Like I said, this is a war of absolutes. I fail to see the logic in negotiating or maintaining dialogue with anybody who cannot see or say the simplest of solutions.
The killing really hasn’t ever stopped. There is documented evidence of such going back to the early 1700’s. Enough so that it would seem safe to circumstantially assume an unbroken 2000 year long chain of the killing of Jews in the Holy Land.
I also will never understand how murder can ever be the victims fault.
===
The Egyptians of the Gaza Strip should be addressing their grievances to Cairo, not by killing Jews. I guess they blew that chance with that whole killing of Sadat thing.
The Jordanians of the West Bank should be addressing their grievances to Amman, not by killing Jews. But they had that whole Black September thing, so I guess that’s out too.
They, (the newly minted in 1964 Palestinians), seem to have worn out their post-Black September “welcome” in Lebanon as well. But that’s really not fair to the Lebanese either, is it? It seems the Palestinians arrival was akin to dropping a load of cement right in the middle of Lebanon’s house of cards ethno-religious balancing act.
It would appear as though Algeria hasn’t been all that happy with their previous houseguests. Seems they left the place a wreck and then burned quite a few bridges in Kuwait as well.
Disengagement doesn’t seem to have helped all that much either; they just moved the anti-random-Jew rockets a little closer.
Every single WW2 era refugee situation has been resolved, except one.
===
Group punishment? Damn right, its lots of groups.
The PLO is the same Fatah is the same as Black September is the same as Force 17 is the same as al-Aska Martyrs is the same as HAMAS is the same as Hezbollah is the same as Islamic Jihad is the same as al Qaeda is the same as Muslim Brotherhood is the same as Sunni is the same as Shia is the same as Wahabi is the same as CAIR as is the same…
(hatip: JWM of LGF)
No more Hudna’s. No more Peace of Saladin. No more religion of peace. Stop killing Jews.
If you hang around murderers and terrorists, you should expect to become collateral damage.
Hello : /..That land is rightfully Israeli land for many reasons:
1) It is part of the original mandate. 2) It is part of Israel in the second mandate after TransJordan cut off over 75% of "Palestine". 3) It was won after a defencive war. 4) It was offered in return for peace, however this offer was denied. 5) Over 95% was offered to "Palestinians" in return for peace, however this offer was denied.../
You call that proof for anything ? EVERYTHING mentioned above is WRONG. PAlestine was part of the mandate, does that make it yours ?? No claims. UN proposed 2 states, arab abd israeli, the borders of which are well known for all of us. WHY telling lies to everyone and say the occupied west bank is not an occupied land , since your OWN sentences proof the opposite...???
....It was offered in return for peace ...wt would that mean or proof ?? Wake up and STOP believing your own illusions .
Miss R : Look at what you say and at Stevens.. He admits the 67 west bank is NOT ISRAELI ..!!
I dont know but you are making no valid points to me or anyone.
The name of this blog 'culture for all' is also a disillusion ! it should be named culture for Israel.. not for all..you are denying everyone their rights...This is both unethical and WRONG
Render and all /..Members of both CPT and the ISM have been repeatedly caught aiding and abetting terrorists and suicide bombers. This is hardly “non-violent.”../
More lies. Where is your proof ??
This is very shameful render..attacking people like the CPT. You should be ashame of yurself.
regardless ; you have no proof for anythng... .more lies
/Jews don’t use Highway 60, (Jerusalem to Hebron), very often. I’m told it isn’t safe.../
I wouldnt say this is a lie..this is complete ignorance from you. I prefer you dont talk about what you dont know about.This would be better than appearing in the way you do now.
I have just read the rest of the comments by all of you.
I am shocked, and disappointed.
I do want to make the following points clear before saying anything : First: Unlike al of you I am writing this blog with my name, picture, address and all information about me. If I have any intention to lie I would have hidden my name at least. Second : I have never lied. Tell me exactly where did i lie Steve, and others. Cut and paste what you believe are the 'lies' Third ; I am here because i think I am talking with civilized and educated people. I also believe that dialogue with the other side is the first step to understand their positions and thoughts , then become closer to putting more effective solutions.
What i want to say now : All your accusations of me are without any base. Whats wrong if I helped the CPT in some translation work ? You view the CPT as an org that helps and supports terrorists..well..let me see now who is telling the BIGGEST LIES : prove me wrong and send me one FORMAL israeli link , from the ministry of foreign affairs or the ministry of interior that support your claim. CPT is a well respected org all over the world. Saying anything other than that is wrong and is another lie.
I have no intention , after hearing what you were saying about me, to put any comment on your site. You guys keep saying what you want to say, you dont want to hear any more 'lies' from me.
Tsedek :
You also support Render's, Steven's and Miss R's positions that CPT supports terror ? Yes or No ? Do you believe I lied at any point during our conversations and notes ? if yes when, where and wt did u reply ?
I do thank you for being the voice of reason in this above read conversation ( in this comments bar ).
I wonder what raccoon would think when he reads this, i would want to invite him to read these comments..
Stevenson : If I were you, i would be ashamed of myself. If I were you I would be more careful before accusing ppl of telling lies. I would also make sure of any point before sanding it out coz it might be wrong and it might hurt other people.
You have repeatedly lied or mischaracterized history on your blog and mine. But that's fine! I actually hope you continue posting. You are clearly a smart man and I hope you continue to contribute, DESPITE your ties to a terror supporting organization.
And regarding the West Bank.
It was not legitimately Israel's in 1948. However, the situation changed in 1967. No one here is arguing the West Bank was legitimately Israel's in 1967.
I want to further add that I would like the Palestinians to have their own state as soon as they can be trusted to not use the state to propogate terror against Israel. I believe that most people on this site believe that as well.
It is an honor and privillage for me that I worked with the CPT. Actually the recommendations they gave me are of most value and respect to me.
The links you provided are meaningless ..They are pro Israeli Would you expect your government to welcome the CPT ,known that the CPT is doing great work there in Palestine in helping expose the crimes of settlers and occupation ??
I have no intention to add any comment here anymore, unless it is related to other lies you might tell.
You say i mischaracterized history ? What might be more mischaracterizing than claiming than organizations like the UN and btselem and Peace now and physicians for human rights are all telling lies ??
You need to work more on this blog if you want it to be read.You also need to work more on accepting others and have a little tolerance.
Last note :/.. DESPITE my ties to a terror organization..../ terror is exactly wt you are calling for in your blog.
The above link has an answer for everything that Osaid has gotten wrong so far. They should, they've heard it all before, a million times.
Google search the terms - "International Solidarity Movement" and "Palestinian ambulances" on that site...
Looks official to me.
===
Holocaust denial isn't a cultural difference, it's racist insanity.
One or two more holocausts like the last one, and it's lights out.
===
dammit.
Osaid, I said I wasn't going to speak directly to you any longer.
I give you credit for using your real name and picture. That takes courage...or stupidity. And I'm not sure there is really ever a difference between the two.
After that...You've got nothing left but Taqyyia.
All the couragous stupidity or stupid courage in the world cannot un-do the endless carnage your people have wrought upon my people over the last 200 years.
Calling me a racist isn't going to work. I'm not the one out in the street with an AK-47, a mask, and a homemade bomb. I'm not the one out in the street screaming "death to all Jews!" I'm not the one hollering "Allah Ahkbar!" while blindly firing unguided rockets into civilian areas.
Fact is, those idiots still dont have any way of dealing with the IDF. They're just gonna get even more of themselves killed, along with a buncha of civilian meatshields. All to no avail, because the Jews will still be there.
So what's the freaking point?
Stop the rockets. Stop the suicide bombs. Stop the cross-border attacks. Stop killing Jews.
If by "great work" of the CPT, you mean actively supporting terrorists - as I documented, and which you did not in any way disprove - then I guess to you that would be "great work."
To me, the CPT and ISM are terror supporters who pretend to be peace workers. Oh, and not just to me, but to anyone who actually looks at the facts on the ground and the actions of the CPT/ISM.
You also support Render's, Steven's and Miss R's positions that CPT supports terror ? Yes or No ? Do you believe I lied at any point during our conversations and notes ? if yes when, where and wt did u reply ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't believe you lied. If I wrote anything about it, then by now I've forgotten where - sorry...
I do believe those organizations are -whether knowlingly or unknowlingly- supporting terror though. I can believe people close to it might not see that, but personally I am VERY VERY VERY much against ANY foreign "help" organization butting their noses in. They're all having their own political agenda's that are more based on their gutfeelings (hate, like, love) and self-importance.
There is a very clever Palestinian man sometime writing in the talkbacks of Ynet. Ramzi Sfeir. We agree on those things: "together" we gotta solve this. (This goes same direction to solving the mental and financial support hilltop settlers are receiving, for me = EVERYBODY butt out of OUR problems.)
Never is wrong to investigate things from whereever they come. If I wouldn't check maan newsagency together with yedioth - i'd be unbalanced. Afterwards you can write your own opinion and who you trust more. But, generalizations are blinding --- I think. ======================== Render: After that...You've got nothing left but Taqyyia.....
On the person and very insulting, don't you think? Is it therefore you wanna be in dialogue? Why is it so hard to assume that all (excluding the outsiders like cutter etc.) are here with the best intentions? ========================= I'm trying very much to understand the "other side" - different perceptions - different info. But the lack of respect for each other is hijacking the real contents here...
Osaid, Steven said: ===First, Palestine which was to be the Jewish homeland was converted into Palestine and TransJordan. TransJordan taking over the majority of the land. No problem.
Second, The second Palestinian state proposed by the UN partition plan which was rejected by the Arabs shortly before they attempted a genocide against the Jewish people.
Third, Israel.
As the Arabs rejected the Partition plan that is now in the waste paper basket.===
++++++++++
This is history officially and registered. Why don't you agree? What other version is there?
OK - I assume you probably won't agree that the English can give away a country where other people lived in?
Have you ever read The Rape Of Palestine?
There were dealings between the Arabs and the Jews way before the English got involved. Soon as they butt their nose in, things went sour. Are you aware of this? (That we might be the product of a policy that indulged in serving their own interests -the English- by setting us up against each-other and supporting extremists from both sides?) Tse.
Osaid managed to utterly ignore the following two points. Both of which are highly relevant to any dialogue or negotiating attempt.
===
#1 - An “interesting” link found on Osaids Palestine vs Israel blog is for one Norman Finkelstein. A Holocaust denier and long-time friend of Nazi’s, I call Finkelstein a modern day kapo, and with good reasons. Finkelstein is one of the neo-nazi’s that lost a lawsuit against Deborah Lipstadt, who then wrote a very good book about the subject.
Denying the Holocaust – The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. Free Press 1993.
#2 -You’ll note that Osaid, who has repeatedly inflated the already inflated UN Palestinian refugee count from the UN’s “official” 500,000 all the way up to 750,000, (750,000 is the total number of all persons reported in the last recorded British Mandate census of 1931), has yet to acknowledge the presence of 800,000 Jewish refugees, in Israel, from all Muslim nations.
-#1a - …And he says that my links are all lies? Finkelstein was found guilty of and heavily fined for lying in court, repeatedly. Finkelsteins sometime co-author, David Irving, is currently spending three years in a German jail for lying about the Holocaust.
-I’m not lying about that link being on Osaids blog, as of 7/10/06, it’s still there.
-#2b -Can any of those 800,000 Jews from Muslim nations ever return to their birth countries?
===
-In point of fact, once I realized that Osaid was actually a member of CPT/ISM, instead of just linking to them like his other anti-Semitic link, I knew there wasn’t much further point in my conversing with him. I wouldn’t bother to converse with David Duke or Fred Phelps either.
Tsedek : Thank you so much. You surely answered many questions. /..This is history officially and registered. Why don't you agree? What other version is there?../ Did I say that there is another verion ? Did I deny any truth here ?? I dont think I did Tsedek. Anyway..thank you so much for your time and input. I would like to repeat what you said : changing dialogue into insults.. MIss R, Render and Steven : I never slandered you. You said I lied where in fact I have not. I still believe that Israel has not intentionally targeted civilians, Steven, but the civilians killed are mostly killed during operations, or by certain soldiers who are NOT paying attention to any morality or any law, and by stupid mistakes your leadership makes as in the case where Shihada was killed together with other 17 civilians. When I said Israel targeted civilians this was what I meant. And Steven : I am very clear and direct : look at my posts even BEFORE i know you ( osaidr.blogspot.com ) the article about nurses under the occupation. I clearly stated that Israel has never used stopping ambulances and nurses and doctors from going to work as a policy. Rather it was individualized and limited cases. I know what the truth is even before knowing any of you.I never changed it. My comments, on the other hand, are replies to offenses and other peoples lies and illusions. This is very clear.
Steven : /Your blog is well read partly because of me. I spent weeks on your blog in the hope of a future collaberation between us both. Further more, many of the people at Palestine Vs. Israel are from Sandmonkeys - such as Raccoon. It is I who linked you to Sandmonkeys blog. You do deserve the credit for the success though, but don't forget it is nothing without the people using it as a forum for discussion.../
I will cut it short Steven :
My blog is well read partially because of you ?? When a MAN says such things to a MAN, this is SHAME itself.
You and Render and Miss R have insulted me more than once. This is not the right nor the civilized way to run talks. As for Render he cut it short and decided not to talk with me anymore. Thank you Render. MIss R is very attacking and very enthusiastic. She described me as a liar more than once ( she once appologized ), she is also not ready to listen to what I say and just wants to talk her mind. Well she has her own blog where she surely can express wtever thoughts and ideas she has.
As for you Steven : I feel that you have gone so far. Your notes have touched me PERSONALLY, and this should not be the case with ANY dialogue, especially that I never insulted any of you. I am here asking you to appologize for what you have done. If you do not want to, then please respect my wish and never come to my blog or comment or do anything that may make my blog well read !!
Forget blogging and forget everything else... you have not respected me at all.Do not make me feel sorry for talking and knowing you.
I have repeatedly pointed to particular lies (or should I say...incorrect statements about history) you have said. I called you a liar when I saw you actually saying LIES. I never once said "Osaid is a liar, so ignore him." In response, you basically could not disprove what I showed were outright lies about history. (not just me, but also Steven and Render)
I know that the CHIEF THING Steven feels betrayed over is the fact that you work for CPT, which like it or lump it, is an organization that supports terrorists - whether you want to admit it or not. We have shown you ample links PROVING that CPT supports terrorists - which you merely dismiss with "it's a pro Israeli site" in return. THAT is just sad.
IF you were to actually point to a site that disproved anything Render, Steven, or I said - that would be one thing. But you haven't. The most you do when pointed out the various misstatements of fact you make (whether intentional misstatements or not) is to point to videos of biased people speaking their minds, or you show organizations believe what you believe. I have yet to see a link to any scholarship on the subject which could be discussed and digested. So, as much as you would like to think you we don't listen to you - the fact remains there is little to listen TO.
Are your feelings hurt? Well, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. But I cannot let lies about Israel stand so easily.
Tsedek:
Um, you make it sound as if Osaid is a puppy dog being attacked. He is a grown man and his membership with CPT (terror supporting organization) was his own choice, and he should live with the consequences of it. (namely, increased skepticism over what he says at minimum)
Is Osaid a "liar?" Well, he has stated lies. I am not sure if his lies are intentionally stated or not, but they are lies nonetheless.
But I don't mind his misstatements of fact, because they are easily disproven. I do mind his taking offense and existing stage left when he is unable to hold his own in a debate. Actually, I value Osaid as a contributor because, misstatements of fact or not, he is clearly at least rational, and clearly does not operate from a perspective of hate - despite everything.
Osaid, it's up to you whether you want to stay or not. However, you're welcome if you want to stay. I would prefer if you stay that you link to facts and figures or works of scholarship, rather than to videos and/or organizations who simply agree with your perspective. (but offer no scholarship to back this up)
Um, you make it sound as if Osaid is a puppy dog being attacked. He is a grown man and his membership with CPT (terror supporting organization) was his own choice, and he should live with the consequences of it. (namely, increased skepticism over what he says at minimum)~~~
===============
Has it ever occured to you that he might see the IDF as terrorists and have a completely different perspective of that of you (or me, or anyone else not living there)? In that case we are all involved in terrorism too in his eyes - being that everyone is drafted into the army here.
You desire from Osaid to give up his perspectives i/o talking about them and explaining yours. That's NOT the way to come to an understanding Miss R. Because obviously you think you are right (and I do agree to many points you raise concerning laws, history etc.) but it is arrogant to even suppose to think that he is not doing the same thing (thinking that he is right) and lying. That's sawing off the legs from under the table while you're trying to reach the food that's on it.
Sorry, but some politeness and no personal attacks are the only way one can show he's openminded and willing to come to understanding the other.
Steven: ~~~ You are so right here. The British are at fault for this, I love my country but we are terrible abroad and I totally understand why some people hate us. (I was sworn at for being English by a little kid and his father last time I went to Portugal.)~~~
=============================
Where do I state that English people are at fault anywhere? I didn't even know you were English. Are you? Do you live in Israel? Or in England? Or? I don't know one thing about you but the comments about your opinions, so please don't take this personally.
And yes, I have GRAVE (very deep) accusations against England from those days. They were playing a sneaky, under the table game by taking from both the jewish and the arabic population here the extremists and let them set the rest of them up against each-other. One and other you can read in a website called the emperor without clothes - who publishes former British intelligence papers given free not long ago...
Of course it's known that arabs and jews didn't get along just peacefully before the British stuck their noses in, but overall there were far more people living in peace with each-other than is made to believe by retro-history telling.
Under the Ottoman Empire things were less organized in that way - but if you're interested I've got a url for you from a diary of a rabbi from 1840 which will take you just there....
No doubt that Osaid is doing what he thinks is right. But that doesn't change the FACT that CPT is a terror supporting organization. This is just a fact.
Osaid said in the past that he was against Palestinian terror - and then we find out he is a member of CPT. It makes one wonder what to believe.
But enough about Osaid.
As far as the Weizmann-Faisal Agreement, I clicked on the link Steven provided, and it says on there that it is unclear whether the agreement ever was going to be signed. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is littered with "could have been" agreements. The fact that the agreement was in a drafting phase does not mean it would have been signed, IRRESPECTIVE of the Brits.
That said, I do agree that the Brits did contribute to the problem. I just do not believe they are the cause of the problem, or that the problem stems from British action.
In the preface you'll read about the author. Some interesting links to magazines from the 1840's onwards as well: the Occident.
======================
Steven, I don't mean the English people. The English gov't of that time I meant and some that were stationed here.
======================
As for the English, please read the following and on what my adversie is based:
http://emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm
"The so-called irreconcilable conflict between Arabs and Jews is another bluff invented out of whole cloth by the big powers to serve their special interests. I remember the day at Geneva, in the early twenties, when at a private dinner Feisal [Emir Feisal, son of the leader of the Arab revolt against the Turks [2]] openly expressed himself in support of the Zionist cause. At that time the other Arab countries were much less concerned about Palestine. The "war" between Jews and Arabs started later, as a result of the work done by [Anglican] Bishop [Rennie] Macinnes, a notorious anti-Semite who was sent by the British to Jerusalem, and by Cardinal Barlassina, the Vatican representative. With the aid of General Storrs, who was then governor of Jerusalem, they brought the Mufti's family to power, supplying funds and other forms of help in an effort to delay the logical solution of the Palestine problem."
I can only see one link : the NGO monitor. The other links show that CPT work with ISM. this is not our point here. You say that palestinians kidnapped CPTers and the CPT accused Israelis, would you plz provide links for your claims so that i can reply back ??
- US born and bred, the Star of David always hangs below the Red, White, and Blue.
===
Steven:
“The British were the force for this current conflict, unfortunately.”
- Only by happenstance of empire and certainly not “the” either. While the terms of the Mandate were completely screwed up to begin with, it is also fair to say that what the British Empire got from the Ottoman Empire via the League of Nations in 1917, is not what the British Empire ended up with in 1946. Perhaps if Europe as a whole hadn’t been busy persecuting, pogroming, and final solutioning their Jews, none of this would have happened the way it has. Although, history pretty clearly shows that Muslim Arabs began killing Jewish immigrants of the 1800’s almost as fast as they arrived and quickly moved on to killing original Jews of the area as well.
- The British Empire also gave to Israel a man named Ord Wingate. This alone should suffice for 1948.
- Y’all certainly made a mess of things in your haste to leave, but I suspect that things would have been far, far worse if you hadn’t been there in the first place.
- My father taught me that when in doubt, move to the sound of the bagpipes. Evil people are always scared of them.
“The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement.”
- Faisal’s assassination by followers of the Mufti made his signing the agreement somewhat problematical. Most historians are of agreement that he would have signed, had he lived.
===
Tse:
“Sorry, but some politeness and no personal attacks are the only way one can show he's openminded and willing to come to understanding the other.”
- Open minded understanding is not a suicide pact.
- I’m even willing to grant that Osaid has the valid excuse of that is what he was taught and how he was raised, I’ve seen his text books translated. Hell, I’ll even grant that he may very well be unaware of the full extent of ISM/CPT’s works, most Westerners are as well. In point of fact, like HAMAS, CPT actually has done some good work in the medical and educational fields. But that is far outweighed by the number of ISM/CPT members being caught red handed with terrorist leaders, transporting terrorist bombs, and a well noted (in the intelligence community) affiliation with Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
- I’d love for a Palestinian to step up and break the mold. Oh to see, hear, or read just one Palestinian leader publicly state that the Palestinians are their own worst problem and if they would just leave the Israelis alone, most of their problems would disappear very quickly.
- Unfortunately, I’m all too aware of what’s already happened to those poor souls, who’ve already spoken up thusly, (obviously, so is Osaid).
- I’m also all too aware that there are around forty graduating classes that have been taught that the Jews, (not just the Zionists, not just the Israelis), are the source of all evil and to be hated and exterminated. Osaid is from one of those graduating classes…
are you having fun of us?? If you are educated well you wont ask what is ISLAM, because the Qura`an and the bible are God words, but what is miracle that our Quran will never be distort but your read the real and undistoeted bible you not see any differences. I think you guys you should educate your self before having fun of us!! because I am a muslim, my book taught me how to respect all types of religion.
72 comments:
Disgusting !!
Women in Islam are allowed to :
Dance, sing, read, wirte, go out, go to school, to university, studt ANY specialty and do anythng they want to.
the stupid systems that we see in Saudi Arabia and Iran are far from Islam, though they pretend to be Islamic states..the same story with Israel, it pretends to be democratic while in fact we see racism and descrimination in every aspect of daily life.
A) That was a joke. I similarly had a joke about Jews earlier. See: http://cultureforall.blogspot.com/2006/02/israelis-launch-their-own-cartoon.html
B) Israel is a democratic state, and the one democracy in the Middle East. You know you are wrong.
As far as Iran/Saudi Arabia goes - they certainly represent themselves as Islamic. I don't see masses of people protesting that. Take back your religion if you think otherwise.
And even in "moderate" Muslim nations, women are not granted full rights with men. Hell, even wearing the hijab is an insult - why is it that women have to cover themselves up, and men don't?
Osaid,
since there are so many people Claiming to be the Real Muslims, can you please explain what Islam Really Stands for??
And Assuming that Israel does have Racism and Descrimination! Since when are those Factors of a Democratic State??
Oh and Can you show me a country where there is no Racism or Descrimination??
Islam is the only religion that still practices slavery.
Even if only a small number actually practice it, they are alone amongst the entire world community.
No other religion condones or practices slavery in even the smallest and most radical factions.
Only Saudi Arabia and Iran? How about Yemen, Sudan, and most of Pakistan?
FISH IN
A BARREL,
R
Render,
You have been on fire lately!
Just to point out that Osaid works at one of five hospitals in Hebron.
He's well aware of the dual-use ambulances/weapons carriers.
He's also well aware that Hebrons hospitals don't treat Jews.
One of the leading Islamist terrorists is a pediatrition. A doctor of children is also a mass murderer.
...And Osaid still has nothing to say about cut and pasting straight from neo-nazi websites.
OUT,
R
Israel is a democracy ??
heheheheh
Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East, whether you want to admit it or not.
Osaid,
that was not an Answer.
ok it was but quite pathetic.
What Makes Israel not a Democracy?? PLease regard my previous comment when you answer.
Steven,
Perfectly stated!! Great comment, as always!!
Though I want to add that Israelis are NOT racist, or should I say, not any more racist than Western Europe of the US, if you use that as a benchmark. Israelis only desire protection from terror. That in and of itself is completely understandable and NOT indicative of racism.
hello again
Ive just been busy so i couldnt answer or comment...
Render :
/Just to point out that Osaid works at one of five hospitals in Hebron.He's well aware of the dual-use ambulances/weapons carriers.
He's also well aware that Hebrons hospitals don't treat Jews.
One of the leading Islamist terrorists is a pediatrition. A doctor of children is also a mass murderer.
...And Osaid still has nothing to say about cut and pasting straight from neo-nazi websites./
One of FIVE hospitals..waw !
In hebron there has never been any incidence where ambulances where used for non medical reasons. If you have any claims PROVE them NOW.
Who told you that Hospitals in hebron does not treat jews ?? And by the way, those ambulances you talk about were engaged in more than one occassion in helping settlers or soldiers in road accidents in road 60. Keep that in mind.
Steven
/Though Osaid's comments are clearly not about facts but an attempt to slander Israel - ironic Osaid, how can you condemn any country for being "undemocratic" when the PLO/Hamas gangland is not a democracy - it doesn't even have freedom of the press - when Jordan is not a democracy, when Egypt is being run by a secular dictator and could be taken over by the MB soon, when Iran, Saudi, Syria and Iraq (Prior to US intervention) - are all tyrannies.../
I will bring you the prrof that Israel is not a democracy..calm down.
Oleh..
I dont want to talk about any religion. Go ask some experts.
and Render :
Slavery ?? Slavery is being practiced in your DEMOCRATIC state of israel ; it has a world RECORD for being the last OCCUPIER in the history of human life ( aside from the recent American occupation to Iraq )...
good day
Israel is not an "occupier" of foreign land. And even accepting your NON REALITY of Israel as occupier, Palestinians are not SLAVES. They do not have full citizenship rights with Israelis, but THEY ARE AT WAR WITH ISRAEL.
Your non logic is stunning.
I do not have any proof of Hebron and ambulances in specifically, and I am too tired to go get it, so I will let Render have a go at that one. However, there is ample proof that in fact Red Crescent ambulences have been used to transport suicide bombers and weaponry.
/...Israel is not an "occupier" of foreign land. And even accepting your NON REALITY of Israel as occupier, Palestinians are not SLAVES. They do not have full citizenship rights with Israelis, but THEY ARE AT WAR WITH ISRAEL.../
Miss R :
Did you realy write this ?/ Do you believe it ??
You are not occupiers ?? what r u doing in the west bank then ??
just answer me regarding the occupation part and lets put a start to this argument and agree on one thing at least ; occupation or what ?
Osaid Rasheed:
Occupating implies Israel is there unlawfully. As I explained on numerous occasions, the West Bank is legitimately Israel's land. They are no more "occupying" the West Bank than they are anywhere else.
That said, I am aware that most likely the land will be Palestinian eventually, if the Palestinians ever get their shit together and can legitimately declare an acceptance of the mainland of Israel, and that they will NOT enact terror against Israel.
Steven :
I looked at the link you provided. Apparently on of the gunmen was shot in his hand but another 4 militants managed to get on with him and escapef rom that place..
this was done with the Un's ambulance approval?? Did the ambulance driver ask them to get over ? they just got over, and imagine what might happen if the driver and the medic asked them to gett off.
Still..this is not a proof that our ambulances are supporting or transporting ammunition and militants.
interesting though.
What is more interesting is that IDF targeted many ambulances claiming that this was a proof that palestinian ambulances do carry militants.
this is sad. The driver couldnt have done anythning, though.
Steven :
dont quote me while talking with Miss R, she has extreme thoughts and she is denying very basic truths and facts about the israeli palestinian conflict. Your quote and comments was not logical, am afraid.
a point to add ;
israel is a much more better place to live in than so many other places in the mid east or the whole arab world. That is a fact that i know very well. and I dont feel that i should hide, too.
You should know that i am not in a position that allows me to speak freely about anyhing or anyone( u knonw wt i mean very well). consult Raccoon with that !
Anyway..
Israel is not trating the people of the west bank as people. It is using collective punishment and almost the same mentality of Saddam and others to deal with us.
again, lets not argue about religions. Both Miss R and Render were srong, and rude too. I do not criticize any religion nor do I believe that criticizing judaism or christianity or islam will bring any good to any one. i do not , also, have any criticizm to judaism or christianity, they are, as well as islam, religions and you either believe in religions or not. if you do believe in a religion you should respect oher religions, if you dont then you should just shut up ( render and miss r ) and not starting making fun of other peoples beliefs.
Miss r and slender you should both appologize for your previous comments which i view as opposing and criticizing to religions ( all, including judaism ).
good day
Miss R;
/..Occupating implies Israel is there unlawfully. As I explained on numerous occasions, the West Bank is legitimately Israel's land../
What about UN resolutions, the same Un that legitimately gave you the right to establish your state in 1948, stating that Israel's presence in the west bank is illegal, is and it is an occupation / what about UN's resolutions about the rights of refugees ?
Steven..
ragrding our talks previoussly..check this, too
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/eed216406b50bf6485256ce10072f637/d81ee14d62f20fbd8525719d006a2007/$FILE/WBN161.pdf
Osaid:
Instead of screaming my views on Islam are "racist" or "wrong," why not DISPROVE THEM??? Oh right, you can't. I didn't say Islam as a mere concept was wrong, but I did say that Islam the reality has perpetuated brutality upon the world. Not all Muslims are bad, and many are great people. But terrorists quote directly from the Koran, and I would like to add that Iran and Saudi Arabia call themselves ISLAMIC NATIONS, and claim to follow the word of Allah. If you feel that this is NOT Islam or a derivation of Islam, then make a big stink. Start rallying people to take back your religion. Oh right, anyone who does anything like that has a fatwa against them and fears death.
And I might add that I am in agreement re: Christianity - five hundred years ago! Christianity has since had a reformation, and Islam has not. Christians do not go about beheading people, claiming Jesus made them do it, and those who do are extremely ostracized and punished under the law. As far as Jews, they never had their own nation until recently (nor the power to effectuate anything, as a result), and Israel actually abides by extremely high human rights standards.
You take offense to what I have to say, and then do not disprove me or Render.
Re: the UN resolutions, I gave you an answer on your blog, but I will copy/paste...
The UN of 1947 is not the UN today. Today, almost every nation in the world is in the UN, including various genocidal nations such as Sudan, and extreme human rights violators, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. They have delegitimized what was once a legitimate institution of nations.
You have not disproven my claim re: the abstentee landlords. Zionists do not say their claim rests SOLELY on buying land lawfully. They say it is twofold - bibical, and also from having legitimately purchased land.
In 1948, instead of accepting a two state solution, Palestinians left Israel on their own in order to wage war upon the nation. That means they GAVE UP any right they had to the land, once they left. Those who stayed are now full Israeli citizens, called Israeli Arabs.
The fact is Israel did NOT "steal" land, and I might add, the Arabs DID steal Jewish land. When Israel was partitioned, any land belonging to Jews in the West Bank was immediately annexed to Jordan, who unlawfully took over the West Bank instead of giving the Palestinians their own state. (which they never had previously, incidently - Palestinians really are "Trans Jordanians," if one wanted to be accurate)
If you do not accept the basic reality of how Israel was formed, then I must conclude that you do not believe in the State of Israel and do not recognize Israel's right to exist. Please prove me wrong here.
But if that is in fact an accurate representation of your views, you are exactly part of the problem, and perpetuating the conflict.
Now for some additional facts...
In 1967, Israel, in a fight the involved their very right to exist, won the land of the West Bank, Gaza, and Sinai. In an unprecedanted response, Israel immediately attempted to turn over the land back to Egypt and Jordan - on one condition. Accept Israel's right to exist, and do not wage war upon Israel anymore. This was refused. The 1968 resolution basically stated that Israel should give back the land, but had no teeth to it, and did not declare Israel's actions unlawful, as it would have flown in the face of international precedant to do so, given international precedant. Since then, the UN has abandoned all pretext of treating Israel fairly, and, with genocidal member nations, have issued bullshit resolutions against Israel with zero logic whatsoever.
Perversely, this gives Israel every incentive to do whatever the fuck it wants, since they seem to get UN resolutions NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, GOOD OR BAD.
Steven,
LOL, you beat me to the majority of my post!
Osaid: There will be no further direct communication between us.
===
“Sunday, March 29
Dianne Roe, Kathleen Kern, Rich Meyer and Benno Barg had worship in
the al Atrash family tent. Osaid Rasheed, a former student of Kern's,
came along to translate and for the first time, Wilaa' al Atrash (14)
was able to fully describe what had happened to her family on Sunday,
March 22nd. She said that she felt like dying after seeing her
parents, brothers and sisters get hit by the soldiers.”
-I suspect by now some, or most of you have figured out Osaids affliation with CPT?
-Osaid is a “former” student of Kathleen Kern, of CPT.
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7204
“CPT activities related to the Arab-Israeli conflict began in 1992, when the organization dispatched "violence reduction workers" to Palestinian towns, in close coordination with political leaders such as the mayor of Hebron. Best known for "direct action" sabotage of foreign militaries, CPT's official motto is "Getting in the Way," a skill it honed interfering with Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers. The number of CPT missions in support of Palestinians has grown steadily over time, now constituting half of the organization's worldwide activity. CPT cooperates with, shares personnel with, and works alongside the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and is particularly active in Hebron.”
-Members of both CPT and the ISM have been repeatedly caught aiding and abetting terrorists and suicide bombers. This is hardly “non-violent.”
===
-The very first “interesting” link in Osaids Palestine vs Israel blog is for one Norman Finkelstein. A Holocaust denier and long-time friend of Nazi’s, I call Finkelstein a modern day kapo, and with good reasons. Finkelstein is one of the neo-nazi’s that lost a lawsuit against Deborah Lipstadt, who then wrote a very good book about the subject.
“Denying the Holocaust – The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. FreePress 1993.”
===
"You should know that i am not in a position that allows me to speak freely about anyhing or anyone (u knonw wt i mean very well). consult Raccoon with that!"
-This worries me. What Osaid is saying in his various posts across the web, may not be what Osaid is actually thinking…or allowed to think and write.
-Moderation is generally not found in the home environment.
-You’ll note that Osaid, who has repeatedly inflated the already inflated UN Palestinian refugee count from the “official” 500,000 all the way up to 750,000, (750,000 is the total number of all persons reported in the last British Mandate census of 1931), has yet to acknowledge the presence of 800,000 Jewish refugees, in Israel, from Muslim nations.
-Jews don’t use Highway 60, (Jerusalem to Hebron), very often. I’m told it isn’t safe.
===
-Ambulance weapons carriers? Not just Hebron, all over the West Bank and Gaza.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/12/The+Palestinian+use+of+ambulances+and+medical+mate.htm
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianambulancesterrorism1009.html
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianambulancesterrorism1009.html
-The second two links have lots of pretty pictures.
-On Feb. 8th, 2006 the UN’s Temporary International Presence in Hebron (TIPH), established shortly after Baruch Goldsteins 1994 murder of 29 Muslims at prayer, withdrew after Palestinian attacks on their headquarters. The Palestinians were angered by the cartoons…
===
-I’m not sure how the solution can be much simpler. It’s only three words…
STOP
KILLING
JEWS,
R
hey...
i ran into the site of this video and they posted the following response :
another video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLHFLy5UI4U&mode=related&search=
Steven, I'd imagine the Finklestein site is where the blood libel stuff came from. It's even in the same order of presentation.
Not sure what happened with the INS and MFA links, (either blogger doesn't like transfers from Word, or blogger doesn't like really long addresses), but searching for "Palestinian ambulances" on either links homepage opens up a lot of hits. A lot, going back quite a ways...
I suppose I could see a point about the driver in that video you linked not having a choice in the matter, once. And only if, there was a logical reason for the two ambulances being there, before the action began in the first place. When the IED was planted.
PRECOGNITION?,
R
Render,
WOW. Just WOW. I didn't think to look up information on Osaid Rasheed on the internet. What you found is both troubling and yet not very surprising. Thank you for your contribution, it was invaluable.
For the record, the link Render provided did not actually have the quote he listed. I think that was an accident, however, because CPT's own website has that very quote.
http://www.cpt.org/archives/1998/mar98/0018.html
Again, great catch, Render!
Ahhhh... I don't like it. React to things Osaid writes i/o undermining his credibility by trying to make him look suspicious. So what if he's tied up with that stupid organization? The core of this conflict is that we think different from each-other, so let's just concentrate on THAT.
Osaid, you're wrong. In Islam it's forbidden to hear music, dance and sing. At least for the religious followers - I'm on a dutch forum who's posters are almost all muslim and they keep on bringing up the passages in the Quran forbidding this. Not that everybody sticks to it of course, but in origin it's forbidden.
I don't know if you're aware of the calling off of one or another music festival in Jenin or Ramallah (I believe it was the latter) by the Hamas, where people contributing to this festival were very angry about?
Racism and discrimination exists under every form of government - but in a democracy like Israel it can be addressed freely, without fearing for your life. There's a whole lot of difference in that between the PA and Israel, as I'm sure you know.
Tse.
Tsedek:
In the case of someone who has miscited facts, I think it is quite appropos to see why they do so, and what their perspective is.
Steven,
So many people are so CONVINCED that somehow Jews lived in peaceful coexistence with Arabs for centuries under Arab rule, when the truth is they were treated like like second class citizens, and there was peace only when they accepted their place in society.
Steven,
I would like you to post your comment about anti-zionism as a post on this board. It was terrific - very spot on!
And yes - great quote about the bible!
Steven,
No, I meant as a seperate post. I think it deserves its own seperate discussion. What you wrote was EXTREMELY spot on, and I would like as many people to see it. :-)
Miss R. : July 08, 2006 6:34 AM
===============================
Why? To judge someone? Is it not much more important to talk to someone with different perspectives? What use is judging? Where does that get "us"?
I don't agree with such tactics at all. To kill the discussion before it even starts because the participant is found too light.
Tse.
Tsedek:
I am not killing the discussion. Rather, I believe it enhances the discussion to understand why someone is misciting facts and misrepresenting his opinions.
Steven - July 08, 2006 7:11 AM - "In this case though I think it is important to know the person we are talking to as Osaid seems to have been lying to me and others for several months now." -
Steven, you could also just ask Osaid how he can explain such controversial thoughts. Maybe for him it makes sense. I myself am a person who is hardly ever understood by "conventional sides" because in my head the rationality doesn't seem to follow what other people see as logical. So, why don't you just give Osaid the benefit of the doubt?
Tse.
Steven and Miss R. -
of course! it is his Osaid's background and actions too. we're supposed to be on different sides of the fence, remember?
it is only logical to me that everything is seen from one's own perspective and the perspective of someone else can never be understood completely so accusing is for me NOT the way to discuss subjects, rather it works deterring and gap-activating.
Tse.
Tsedek:
No one is killing any discussion. However, Osaid has been misrepresenting who he is. He said he is a peace worker, when he in fact worked for an organization that supports terrorists. This means that extra skepticism should be used when reading his comments, so YES, it is important to know Osaid's background - not to kill discussion, but rather to enhance it.
Miss R. an organization that supports terrorists - but they don't proclaim themselves as such, so it is very much possible that under "terrorists" - Osaid understands something quite different than you (or me).
Steven, I don't know about the correspondence between yourselves, and what has been said and what not, but don't you think you should -at least- ASK how something controversial in your eyes makes sense for Osaid?
===================
Sorry guys, but I see so many times that only the tone of discussions are causing opponents to become more and more radical in their own views i/o trying to link to each-other by HUMAN (and thus in respectful manner) interaction.
I'm afraid this is what will be happening here again...
Tse.
Steven:
"but it is important to be cautious when you are presented with someone who purposefully decieves you. :("
Not everything is what it seems, no? And, also: why you gotta be cautious? This is internet - no showdown at the OK Corral ....
Just stay polite :(
Tse.
Here is the bottom line.
I welcome Osaid to post here, despite what was revealed about his past.
Tsedek, I hope you continue to post here as well. I welcome a diversity of opinions, and you have been able to show me different sides to things in quite an invaluable way.
Steven sweetheart :)
This IS the middle-east !
Controversial thinking is at the edge of the conflict.
Get this picture:
In an Israeli prison some Palestinian youngsters are being asked if they regret having done what they did (serving as walking ticking bombs for those terrorgroups trying to make it into Israel for example).
Almost all of them answer: "no.
"Would you do it again then?"
"Yes" ....
Some time later they're being asked about the classes they take in prison and what would they like to do with their education and what to become..................
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
With eyes that shine they get excited and start telling the interviewer how they'd like to become doctors, engineers, shoemakers (even haha).... So excited and full of dreams about their future - that, in one second they also would throw out of the window by blowing themselves up.
This is just an example - logic is not always there, but it IS important to keep on talking and stay polite, because that's the only ONLY straw where people can reach recognition in the end....
Tse.
Tsedek:
I just view the information as reason for perspective, and to increase skepticism of Osaid.
I do not think the talking should stop. I hope Osaid continues to post here, if he wants to. I would like to continue the dialogue, even if we do get heated at times. I actually have quite enjoyed the back and forth.
OK, Miss R. :)
I also hope Osaid is not near despair by now and throws in the towel LOL
Tse.
The art of negotiation begins with knowing ones opponent. If ones opponents only negotiating point begins and ends with ones death, well…
Like I said, this is a war of absolutes. I fail to see the logic in negotiating or maintaining dialogue with anybody who cannot see or say the simplest of solutions.
The killing really hasn’t ever stopped. There is documented evidence of such going back to the early 1700’s. Enough so that it would seem safe to circumstantially assume an unbroken 2000 year long chain of the killing of Jews in the Holy Land.
I also will never understand how murder can ever be the victims fault.
===
The Egyptians of the Gaza Strip should be addressing their grievances to Cairo, not by killing Jews. I guess they blew that chance with that whole killing of Sadat thing.
The Jordanians of the West Bank should be addressing their grievances to Amman, not by killing Jews. But they had that whole Black September thing, so I guess that’s out too.
They, (the newly minted in 1964 Palestinians), seem to have worn out their post-Black September “welcome” in Lebanon as well. But that’s really not fair to the Lebanese either, is it? It seems the Palestinians arrival was akin to dropping a load of cement right in the middle of Lebanon’s house of cards ethno-religious balancing act.
It would appear as though Algeria hasn’t been all that happy with their previous houseguests. Seems they left the place a wreck and then burned quite a few bridges in Kuwait as well.
Disengagement doesn’t seem to have helped all that much either; they just moved the anti-random-Jew rockets a little closer.
Every single WW2 era refugee situation has been resolved, except one.
===
Group punishment? Damn right, its lots of groups.
The PLO is the same Fatah is the same as Black September is the same as Force 17 is the same as al-Aska Martyrs is the same as HAMAS is the same as Hezbollah is the same as Islamic Jihad is the same as al Qaeda is the same as Muslim Brotherhood is the same as Sunni is the same as Shia is the same as Wahabi is the same as CAIR as is the same…
(hatip: JWM of LGF)
No more Hudna’s. No more Peace of Saladin. No more religion of peace. Stop killing Jews.
If you hang around murderers and terrorists, you should expect to become collateral damage.
ROCKET
SCIENCE,
R
Hello :
/..That land is rightfully Israeli land for many reasons:
1) It is part of the original mandate.
2) It is part of Israel in the second mandate after TransJordan cut off over 75% of "Palestine".
3) It was won after a defencive war.
4) It was offered in return for peace, however this offer was denied.
5) Over 95% was offered to "Palestinians" in return for peace, however this offer was denied.../
You call that proof for anything ?
EVERYTHING mentioned above is WRONG.
PAlestine was part of the mandate, does that make it yours ?? No claims.
UN proposed 2 states, arab abd israeli, the borders of which are well known for all of us. WHY telling lies to everyone and say the occupied west bank is not an occupied land , since your OWN sentences proof the opposite...???
....It was offered in return for peace ...wt would that mean or proof ??
Wake up and STOP believing your own illusions .
Miss R : Look at what you say and at Stevens.. He admits the 67 west bank is NOT ISRAELI ..!!
I dont know but you are making no valid points to me or anyone.
The name of this blog 'culture for all' is also a disillusion ! it should be named culture for Israel.. not for all..you are denying everyone their rights...This is both unethical and WRONG
Render and all
/..Members of both CPT and the ISM have been repeatedly caught aiding and abetting terrorists and suicide bombers. This is hardly “non-violent.”../
More lies. Where is your proof ??
This is very shameful render..attacking people like the CPT. You should be ashame of yurself.
regardless ; you have no proof for anythng... .more lies
Render :
/Jews don’t use Highway 60, (Jerusalem to Hebron), very often. I’m told it isn’t safe.../
I wouldnt say this is a lie..this is complete ignorance from you.
I prefer you dont talk about what you dont know about.This would be better than appearing in the way you do now.
Render R, Steven, Miss R :
I have just read the rest of the comments by all of you.
I am shocked, and disappointed.
I do want to make the following points clear before saying anything :
First:
Unlike al of you I am writing this blog with my name, picture, address and all information about me. If I have any intention to lie I would have hidden my name at least.
Second :
I have never lied. Tell me exactly where did i lie Steve, and others.
Cut and paste what you believe are the 'lies'
Third ;
I am here because i think I am talking with civilized and educated people. I also believe that dialogue with the other side is the first step to understand their positions and thoughts , then become closer to putting more effective solutions.
What i want to say now :
All your accusations of me are without any base. Whats wrong if I helped the CPT in some translation work ? You view the CPT as an org that helps and supports terrorists..well..let me see now who is telling the BIGGEST LIES : prove me wrong and send me one FORMAL israeli link , from the ministry of foreign affairs or the ministry of interior that support your claim. CPT is a well respected org all over the world. Saying anything other than that is wrong and is another lie.
I have no intention , after hearing what you were saying about me, to put any comment on your site. You guys keep saying what you want to say, you dont want to hear any more 'lies' from me.
Tsedek :
You also support Render's, Steven's and Miss R's positions that CPT supports terror ? Yes or No ?
Do you believe I lied at any point during our conversations and notes ? if yes when, where and wt did u reply ?
I do thank you for being the voice of reason in this above read conversation ( in this comments bar ).
I wonder what raccoon would think when he reads this, i would want to invite him to read these comments..
Stevenson :
If I were you, i would be ashamed of myself. If I were you I would be more careful before accusing ppl of telling lies. I would also make sure of any point before sanding it out coz it might be wrong and it might hurt other people.
Good bye
Documentation of CPT's biased political agenda, and how they are not a true peace organization.
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v4n01/CPTPoliticalAgenda.htm
CPT acting as human shields, which supports terrorists (with picture). (NOTE: they then blamed ISRAELIS after they were kidnapped by PALESTINIANS):
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20371
Article which documents how CPT works alongside International Solidarity Movement - known supporters of terrorists.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7204
More details on the ISM here:
http://www.stoptheism.com/
Osaid:
You have repeatedly lied or mischaracterized history on your blog and mine. But that's fine! I actually hope you continue posting. You are clearly a smart man and I hope you continue to contribute, DESPITE your ties to a terror supporting organization.
And regarding the West Bank.
It was not legitimately Israel's in 1948. However, the situation changed in 1967. No one here is arguing the West Bank was legitimately Israel's in 1967.
I want to further add that I would like the Palestinians to have their own state as soon as they can be trusted to not use the state to propogate terror against Israel. I believe that most people on this site believe that as well.
Miss R :
It is an honor and privillage for me that I worked with the CPT. Actually the recommendations they gave me are of most value and respect to me.
The links you provided are meaningless ..They are pro Israeli Would you expect your government to welcome the CPT ,known that the CPT is doing great work there in Palestine in helping expose the crimes of settlers and occupation ??
I have no intention to add any comment here anymore, unless it is related to other lies you might tell.
You say i mischaracterized history ? What might be more mischaracterizing than claiming than organizations like the UN and btselem and Peace now and physicians for human rights are all telling lies ??
You need to work more on this blog if you want it to be read.You also need to work more on accepting others and have a little tolerance.
Last note :/.. DESPITE my ties to a terror organization..../
terror is exactly wt you are calling for in your blog.
http://www.mfa.gov.il
The above link has an answer for everything that Osaid has gotten wrong so far. They should, they've heard it all before, a million times.
Google search the terms - "International Solidarity Movement" and "Palestinian ambulances" on that site...
Looks official to me.
===
Holocaust denial isn't a cultural difference, it's racist insanity.
One or two more holocausts like the last one, and it's lights out.
===
dammit.
Osaid, I said I wasn't going to speak directly to you any longer.
I give you credit for using your real name and picture. That takes courage...or stupidity. And I'm not sure there is really ever a difference between the two.
After that...You've got nothing left but Taqyyia.
All the couragous stupidity or stupid courage in the world cannot un-do the endless carnage your people have wrought upon my people over the last 200 years.
Calling me a racist isn't going to work. I'm not the one out in the street with an AK-47, a mask, and a homemade bomb. I'm not the one out in the street screaming "death to all Jews!" I'm not the one hollering "Allah Ahkbar!" while blindly firing unguided rockets into civilian areas.
Fact is, those idiots still dont have any way of dealing with the IDF. They're just gonna get even more of themselves killed, along with a buncha of civilian meatshields. All to no avail, because the Jews will still be there.
So what's the freaking point?
Stop the rockets. Stop the suicide bombs. Stop the cross-border attacks. Stop killing Jews.
IS IT TO
MUCH TO ASK?,
R
Osaid:
If by "great work" of the CPT, you mean actively supporting terrorists - as I documented, and which you did not in any way disprove - then I guess to you that would be "great work."
To me, the CPT and ISM are terror supporters who pretend to be peace workers. Oh, and not just to me, but to anyone who actually looks at the facts on the ground and the actions of the CPT/ISM.
Osaid:.....Tsedek :
You also support Render's, Steven's and Miss R's positions that CPT supports terror ? Yes or No ?
Do you believe I lied at any point during our conversations and notes ? if yes when, where and wt did u reply ?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't believe you lied. If I wrote anything about it, then by now I've forgotten where - sorry...
I do believe those organizations are -whether knowlingly or unknowlingly- supporting terror though. I can believe people close to it might not see that, but personally I am VERY VERY VERY much against ANY foreign "help" organization butting their noses in. They're all having their own political agenda's that are more based on their gutfeelings (hate, like, love) and self-importance.
There is a very clever Palestinian man sometime writing in the talkbacks of Ynet. Ramzi Sfeir. We agree on those things: "together" we gotta solve this. (This goes same direction to solving the mental and financial support hilltop settlers are receiving, for me = EVERYBODY butt out of OUR problems.)
Does this answer your question?
Tse.
Osaid: They are pro Israeli ...
Never is wrong to investigate things from whereever they come. If I wouldn't check maan newsagency together with yedioth - i'd be unbalanced. Afterwards you can write your own opinion and who you trust more. But, generalizations are blinding --- I think.
========================
Render: After that...You've got nothing left but Taqyyia.....
On the person and very insulting, don't you think? Is it therefore you wanna be in dialogue? Why is it so hard to assume that all (excluding the outsiders like cutter etc.) are here with the best intentions?
=========================
I'm trying very much to understand the "other side" - different perceptions - different info. But the lack of respect for each other is hijacking the real contents here...
Tse.
Osaid, Steven said:
===First, Palestine which was to be the Jewish homeland was converted into Palestine and TransJordan. TransJordan taking over the majority of the land. No problem.
Second, The second Palestinian state proposed by the UN partition plan which was rejected by the Arabs shortly before they attempted a genocide against the Jewish people.
Third, Israel.
As the Arabs rejected the Partition plan that is now in the waste paper basket.===
++++++++++
This is history officially and registered. Why don't you agree? What other version is there?
Tse.
Osaid:
OK - I assume you probably won't agree that the English can give away a country where other people lived in?
Have you ever read The Rape Of Palestine?
There were dealings between the Arabs and the Jews way before the English got involved. Soon as they butt their nose in, things went sour. Are you aware of this?
(That we might be the product of a policy that indulged in serving their own interests -the English- by setting us up against each-other and supporting extremists from both sides?)
Tse.
Tse:
Osaid managed to utterly ignore the following two points. Both of which are highly relevant to any dialogue or negotiating attempt.
===
#1 - An “interesting” link found on Osaids Palestine vs Israel blog is for one Norman Finkelstein. A Holocaust denier and long-time friend of Nazi’s, I call Finkelstein a modern day kapo, and with good reasons. Finkelstein is one of the neo-nazi’s that lost a lawsuit against Deborah Lipstadt, who then wrote a very good book about the subject.
Denying the Holocaust – The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. Free Press 1993.
#2 -You’ll note that Osaid, who has repeatedly inflated the already inflated UN Palestinian refugee count from the UN’s “official” 500,000 all the way up to 750,000, (750,000 is the total number of all persons reported in the last recorded British Mandate census of 1931), has yet to acknowledge the presence of 800,000 Jewish refugees, in Israel, from all Muslim nations.
-#1a - …And he says that my links are all lies? Finkelstein was found guilty of and heavily fined for lying in court, repeatedly. Finkelsteins sometime co-author, David Irving, is currently spending three years in a German jail for lying about the Holocaust.
-I’m not lying about that link being on Osaids blog, as of 7/10/06, it’s still there.
-#2b -Can any of those 800,000 Jews from Muslim nations ever return to their birth countries?
===
-In point of fact, once I realized that Osaid was actually a member of CPT/ISM, instead of just linking to them like his other anti-Semitic link, I knew there wasn’t much further point in my conversing with him. I wouldn’t bother to converse with David Duke or Fred Phelps either.
X-RAY
VISION,
R
Tsedek :
Thank you so much. You surely answered many questions.
/..This is history officially and registered. Why don't you agree? What other version is there?../
Did I say that there is another verion ? Did I deny any truth here ??
I dont think I did Tsedek.
Anyway..thank you so much for your time and input. I would like to repeat what you said : changing dialogue into insults.. MIss R, Render and Steven : I never slandered you. You said I lied where in fact I have not. I still believe that Israel has not intentionally targeted civilians, Steven, but the civilians killed are mostly killed during operations, or by certain soldiers who are NOT paying attention to any morality or any law, and by stupid mistakes your leadership makes as in the case where Shihada was killed together with other 17 civilians. When I said Israel targeted civilians this was what I meant.
And Steven : I am very clear and direct : look at my posts even BEFORE i know you ( osaidr.blogspot.com ) the article about nurses under the occupation. I clearly stated that Israel has never used stopping ambulances and nurses and doctors from going to work as a policy. Rather it was individualized and limited cases. I know what the truth is even before knowing any of you.I never changed it. My comments, on the other hand, are replies to offenses and other peoples lies and illusions. This is very clear.
Steven :
/Your blog is well read partly because of me. I spent weeks on your blog in the hope of a future collaberation between us both. Further more, many of the people at Palestine Vs. Israel are from Sandmonkeys - such as Raccoon. It is I who linked you to Sandmonkeys blog. You do deserve the credit for the success though, but don't forget it is nothing without the people using it as a forum for discussion.../
I will cut it short Steven :
My blog is well read partially because of you ?? When a MAN says such things to a MAN, this is SHAME itself.
You and Render and Miss R have insulted me more than once. This is not the right nor the civilized way to run talks. As for Render he cut it short and decided not to talk with me anymore. Thank you Render. MIss R is very attacking and very enthusiastic. She described me as a liar more than once ( she once appologized ), she is also not ready to listen to what I say and just wants to talk her mind. Well she has her own blog where she surely can express wtever thoughts and ideas she has.
As for you Steven : I feel that you have gone so far. Your notes have touched me PERSONALLY, and this should not be the case with ANY dialogue, especially that I never insulted any of you. I am here asking you to appologize for what you have done. If you do not want to, then please respect my wish and never come to my blog or comment or do anything that may make my blog well read !!
Forget blogging and forget everything else... you have not respected me at all.Do not make me feel sorry for talking and knowing you.
good day all.
and GOOD BYE
Well, that's sad. And, understandable. Unfortunately.
Tse.
Osaid:
I have repeatedly pointed to particular lies (or should I say...incorrect statements about history) you have said. I called you a liar when I saw you actually saying LIES. I never once said "Osaid is a liar, so ignore him." In response, you basically could not disprove what I showed were outright lies about history. (not just me, but also Steven and Render)
I know that the CHIEF THING Steven feels betrayed over is the fact that you work for CPT, which like it or lump it, is an organization that supports terrorists - whether you want to admit it or not. We have shown you ample links PROVING that CPT supports terrorists - which you merely dismiss with "it's a pro Israeli site" in return. THAT is just sad.
IF you were to actually point to a site that disproved anything Render, Steven, or I said - that would be one thing. But you haven't. The most you do when pointed out the various misstatements of fact you make (whether intentional misstatements or not) is to point to videos of biased people speaking their minds, or you show organizations believe what you believe. I have yet to see a link to any scholarship on the subject which could be discussed and digested. So, as much as you would like to think you we don't listen to you - the fact remains there is little to listen TO.
Are your feelings hurt? Well, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. But I cannot let lies about Israel stand so easily.
Tsedek:
Um, you make it sound as if Osaid is a puppy dog being attacked. He is a grown man and his membership with CPT (terror supporting organization) was his own choice, and he should live with the consequences of it. (namely, increased skepticism over what he says at minimum)
Is Osaid a "liar?" Well, he has stated lies. I am not sure if his lies are intentionally stated or not, but they are lies nonetheless.
But I don't mind his misstatements of fact, because they are easily disproven. I do mind his taking offense and existing stage left when he is unable to hold his own in a debate. Actually, I value Osaid as a contributor because, misstatements of fact or not, he is clearly at least rational, and clearly does not operate from a perspective of hate - despite everything.
Osaid, it's up to you whether you want to stay or not. However, you're welcome if you want to stay. I would prefer if you stay that you link to facts and figures or works of scholarship, rather than to videos and/or organizations who simply agree with your perspective. (but offer no scholarship to back this up)
Steven,
That is simply not true. The Arabs and Jews NEVER got along, and didn't get along long before the Brits stuck their nose into it all.
Btw, I love Brits. There's something about the English accent...mmm...
Miss R. ~~~ Tsedek:
Um, you make it sound as if Osaid is a puppy dog being attacked. He is a grown man and his membership with CPT (terror supporting organization) was his own choice, and he should live with the consequences of it. (namely, increased skepticism over what he says at minimum)~~~
===============
Has it ever occured to you that he might see the IDF as terrorists and have a completely different perspective of that of you (or me, or anyone else not living there)? In that case we are all involved in terrorism too in his eyes - being that everyone is drafted into the army here.
You desire from Osaid to give up his perspectives i/o talking about them and explaining yours. That's NOT the way to come to an understanding Miss R. Because obviously you think you are right (and I do agree to many points you raise concerning laws, history etc.) but it is arrogant to even suppose to think that he is not doing the same thing (thinking that he is right) and lying. That's sawing off the legs from under the table while you're trying to reach the food that's on it.
Sorry, but some politeness and no personal attacks are the only way one can show he's openminded and willing to come to understanding the other.
*blush* Tse.
Steven: ~~~ You are so right here. The British are at fault for this, I love my country but we are terrible abroad and I totally understand why some people hate us. (I was sworn at for being English by a little kid and his father last time I went to Portugal.)~~~
=============================
Where do I state that English people are at fault anywhere? I didn't even know you were English. Are you? Do you live in Israel? Or in England? Or? I don't know one thing about you but the comments about your opinions, so please don't take this personally.
And yes, I have GRAVE (very deep) accusations against England from those days. They were playing a sneaky, under the table game by taking from both the jewish and the arabic population here the extremists and let them set the rest of them up against each-other. One and other you can read in a website called the emperor without clothes - who publishes former British intelligence papers given free not long ago...
Of course it's known that arabs and jews didn't get along just peacefully before the British stuck their noses in, but overall there were far more people living in peace with each-other than is made to believe by retro-history telling.
Under the Ottoman Empire things were less organized in that way - but if you're interested I've got a url for you from a diary of a rabbi from 1840 which will take you just there....
Tse.
Tsedek:
No doubt that Osaid is doing what he thinks is right. But that doesn't change the FACT that CPT is a terror supporting organization. This is just a fact.
Osaid said in the past that he was against Palestinian terror - and then we find out he is a member of CPT. It makes one wonder what to believe.
But enough about Osaid.
As far as the Weizmann-Faisal Agreement, I clicked on the link Steven provided, and it says on there that it is unclear whether the agreement ever was going to be signed. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is littered with "could have been" agreements. The fact that the agreement was in a drafting phase does not mean it would have been signed, IRRESPECTIVE of the Brits.
That said, I do agree that the Brits did contribute to the problem. I just do not believe they are the cause of the problem, or that the problem stems from British action.
Steven:
http://www.jewish-history.com/Palestine/index.html
In the preface you'll read about the author. Some interesting links to magazines from the 1840's onwards as well: the Occident.
======================
Steven, I don't mean the English people. The English gov't of that time I meant and some that were stationed here.
======================
As for the English, please read the following and on what my adversie is based:
http://emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm
"The so-called irreconcilable conflict between Arabs and Jews is another bluff invented out of whole cloth by the big powers to serve their special interests. I remember the day at Geneva, in the early twenties, when at a private dinner Feisal [Emir Feisal, son of the leader of the Arab revolt against the Turks [2]] openly expressed himself in support of the Zionist cause. At that time the other Arab countries were much less concerned about Palestine. The "war" between Jews and Arabs started later, as a result of the work done by [Anglican] Bishop [Rennie] Macinnes, a notorious anti-Semite who was sent by the British to Jerusalem, and by Cardinal Barlassina, the Vatican representative. With the aid of General Storrs, who was then governor of Jerusalem, they brought the Mufti's family to power, supplying funds and other forms of help in an effort to delay the logical solution of the Palestine problem."
And-so-on......
Tse.
Steven and Miss r and Render :
I will bring you the proof that the CPT is NOT a terrorist Organization.
Ok ?
When I do, or let us say : IF I do : then you owe me an appology. You would simply be WRONG about it.
Fine ?
Ah, one more thing :
you said the CPT and the supported terrorists and suicide bombers.. would you get me the proof for that ??
I am waiting .
osaid
Osaid,
I sent you several links concerning the terror support of CPT, which you outright dismissed.
HOWEVER, if you want to send links disputing the links I sent, go right ahead. I am open to as much knowledge and information as possible.
If there is one truism, it is knowledge is power.
BTW, glad you decided to stick around. Despite our differences, I see you as a valued poster.
Miss R :
I can only see one link : the NGO monitor.
The other links show that CPT work with ISM. this is not our point here.
You say that palestinians kidnapped CPTers and the CPT accused Israelis, would you plz provide links for your claims so that i can reply back ??
Check this :
http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2006/07/racism-is-alive-and-well-in-jerusalem.html
Truth in Advertising:
- US born and bred, the Star of David always hangs below the Red, White, and Blue.
===
Steven:
“The British were the force for this current conflict, unfortunately.”
- Only by happenstance of empire and certainly not “the” either. While the terms of the Mandate were completely screwed up to begin with, it is also fair to say that what the British Empire got from the Ottoman Empire via the League of Nations in 1917, is not what the British Empire ended up with in 1946. Perhaps if Europe as a whole hadn’t been busy persecuting, pogroming, and final solutioning their Jews, none of this would have happened the way it has. Although, history pretty clearly shows that Muslim Arabs began killing Jewish immigrants of the 1800’s almost as fast as they arrived and quickly moved on to killing original Jews of the area as well.
- The British Empire also gave to Israel a man named Ord Wingate. This alone should suffice for 1948.
- Y’all certainly made a mess of things in your haste to leave, but I suspect that things would have been far, far worse if you hadn’t been there in the first place.
- My father taught me that when in doubt, move to the sound of the bagpipes. Evil people are always scared of them.
“The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement.”
- Faisal’s assassination by followers of the Mufti made his signing the agreement somewhat problematical. Most historians are of agreement that he would have signed, had he lived.
===
Tse:
“Sorry, but some politeness and no personal attacks are the only way one can show he's openminded and willing to come to understanding the other.”
- Open minded understanding is not a suicide pact.
- I’m even willing to grant that Osaid has the valid excuse of that is what he was taught and how he was raised, I’ve seen his text books translated. Hell, I’ll even grant that he may very well be unaware of the full extent of ISM/CPT’s works, most Westerners are as well. In point of fact, like HAMAS, CPT actually has done some good work in the medical and educational fields. But that is far outweighed by the number of ISM/CPT members being caught red handed with terrorist leaders, transporting terrorist bombs, and a well noted (in the intelligence community) affiliation with Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
- I’d love for a Palestinian to step up and break the mold. Oh to see, hear, or read just one Palestinian leader publicly state that the Palestinians are their own worst problem and if they would just leave the Israelis alone, most of their problems would disappear very quickly.
- Unfortunately, I’m all too aware of what’s already happened to those poor souls, who’ve already spoken up thusly, (obviously, so is Osaid).
- I’m also all too aware that there are around forty graduating classes that have been taught that the Jews, (not just the Zionists, not just the Israelis), are the source of all evil and to be hated and exterminated. Osaid is from one of those graduating classes…
DIAMONDS
IN A
COALMINE,
R
Thanks for the extra info Render. :)
I think you are insulting us as a muslims?
are you having fun of us??
If you are educated well you wont ask what is ISLAM, because the Qura`an and the bible are God words, but what is miracle that our Quran will never be distort but your read the real and undistoeted bible you not see any differences. I think you guys you should educate your self before having fun of us!!
because I am a muslim, my book taught me how to respect all types of religion.
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