Friday, July 21, 2006

Developments

Israel may send in some ground troops. Lebanon, aka. not Hezbollah, declared they will repel any Israeli ground troops. The Lebanese army does not move against Hezbollah, but may move against Israel: conclusion - Lebanon is a supporter of terror.

34 comments:

Steven said...

This is significant as the narrative has been that Lebanon is suffering the cancer of Hezbollah. If Lebanon do not not move against Hezbollah but choose to act against Israel at this point in time we will see their true colours.

Steven said...

I hope that bit of news is inaccurate. If anyone has any more details please post a comment or email me:

http://openemail.blogspot.com

Red Tulips said...

I actually read the same thing.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291959920&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Albion Moonlight said...

Well, let's see, Israel has bombed civilians, the infrastructure of Lebanon, it's airports, highways and has created a blockade of supplies into Lebanon.

I fail to see how Lebanese forces reacting to Israel's INVASION of Lebanon does not equate to DEFENDING itself. Their true colors? It seems Israel is showing it's true colors as we speak.

I give up.

Red Tulips said...

Albion:

You are falling for the lies on qrswave's site.

In fact, the infrastructure was bombed in order to prevent weapons and soldiers from Syria and Iran moving to Lebanon. Extreme care was taken to avoid civilian casualties, but Hezbollah purposely wants civilians to die. They use civilians as human shields.

Furthermore, Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for years - indiscriminately, and they captured Israeli soldiers who were WITHIN Israel. They also have a disgusting media that portrays Jews as cockroaches, and airs a miniseries of the Protocols of Zion as fact. It is Hate TV - and spread throughout the world.

On top of all that, Hezbollah has been terrorizing the local population - funded by Syria and Iran, and preventing Lebanon from being truly independent. The Lebanese had six years to disarm Hezbollah, and did nothing - they did not approach world aid organizations or ANYONE to disarm Hezbollah. So now Israel must do the dirty work.

Albion, I know you are American. if Canada did all those actions, I am quite sure you would want to do everything possible to disarm the terrorists. It is quite easy to say what you are saying in the US.

I realize that there are innocent Lebanese who are being hurt, and I feel bad about it. As I have said repeatedly, war is hell.

But sometimes it is necessary.

Albion Moonlight said...

I was listening to an NPR correspondant this morning, who was describing 'precision bombings' of trucks on Lebanese highways, ostensibly because they were carrying weapons to Hezbollah, but she said all the ones she saw contained fruit or other inoccuous items.

To say that one form of terror is "self defense" and another is "aggression" is merely taking semantic sides. I don't agree.

I've read the report in Asia times which states that the captured Israelis were operating on the Lebanese side of the border, and the confirming report from the French newspaper. I followed the debate on the children signing the bombs. I still see no reason to believe those weren't Israeli children signing Israeli ordanance. I looked at camera.org and frankly, it cannot be considered an objective source.

I don't know what the solution is. There's a reason I'm not posting on QRS' blog about this. I am tired of all the hatred and Ashkenazi/protocols of Zion crap. But I cannot help but feel that Israel's "response" is well beyond disproportionate.

What about the Canadian citizens killed by Israeli attacks? Does Canada now have justification to level Israel?

As an American, I feel that we have long ago lost objectivity about the Israeli-Arab conflict (as it is really well beyond just the Palestinians at this point). As a matter of fact, as a citizen I can take a position, but it wouldn't matter because my government has for 50 years taken a different one.

I respect that you do not attack me, and I for one would prefer to have a civil debate than an argumentative one. Like I said, I don't know, but the whole situation makes me sad, and I see no way back from escalation at this point.

Red Tulips said...

Albion:

First of all, I completely welcome you to my blog. You and I disagree, but you are intelligent and well thought out, and so of course I respect your opinion, despite our disagreements. I actually feel my heart warming, knowing that you no longer post on qrswave's blog because of the antisemitism seen on it. You have no idea how upset I am over the amount of hatred on that blog.

Reasonable people can disagree as to whether or not the exact methods Israel is using ultimately something that will be effective. I think that a broad international peacekeeping coalition will be needed to a) rebuild Southern Lebanon; b) keep Hezbollah far from Northern Israel. It is unclear if there is the international will to accomplish this. Furthermore, there has to be some severing of the connection between Iran/Syria and Hezbollah. More than that, there has to be a will from Iran/Syria to stop their funding and support of Hezbollah. It has to happen. If not, then this war will only be repeated over and over again. As it is, I feel like it's deja vu watching the news - it feels like it's the 80s. So little has changed in twenty years!

Now, onto your specific points...

1) In war, total accuracy is impossible. Israel aims for total accuracy, but it will never be able to achieve it. In contrast, Hezbollah purposely aims for civilians and uses civilians as human shields. Thus, most of the civilian deaths in Lebanon are proximately caused by Hezbollah.

2) Please show me how camera.org is in any way an illegitimate source. I have seen them to be extremely accurate.

3) If you look at the photos of the children signing bombs, in fact they signed "To Nasrallah with love." Hardly a bad thing! My only problem is allowing children near a military installation. But the bottom line is Israelis desire the ability to peacefully coexist with their neighbors, but fight them, and they will fight back. Sandmonkey put it very well, what the Arab world wants - the total annhiliation of Israel and the Jews. (and you have to see evidence of this on qrswave's blog)

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/07/17/our-left-their-left/

I highly recommend reading Sandmonkey. He is a very funny and incredibly intelligent Egyptian blogger, who has the inside scoop on what life in Egypt really is like. In fact, I have recently updated the links listing for cultureforall - you will see links to Israeli and Lebanese blogs from across the political spectrum.

4) 5/8 Canadians who died in fact had dual citizenship with Lebanon, and were full time Lebanese citizens for all intents and purposes. All 8 were hanging out in Hezbollah strongholds. Any civilian death is tragic, but sadly, in war, it is unavoidable.

Hezbollah should have thought of that prior to firing rockets into Israel and kidnapping soldiers.

5) Please show me any evidence that the IDF soldiers were captured within Lebanon.

6) The concept of "disproportionate force" is itself ludicrous. Using that as a halllmark for actions means the terrorists hold all the power, and get to frame how things occur. It also guarantees there WILL be a cycle of violence - there will be a continuous tit for tat. Also, the terrorists always strike first, so if you use "proportional" force, then the terrorists always come out on top. Furthermore, if you take the concept of "proportionality" to its logical conclusion, then it means that if one side practices a genocide, the other side is justified in practicing a genocide. I believe that the only way to solve this quagmire is through the use of DISPROPORTIONATE force. That doesn't mean "fire at will," but it does mean that the actions of the terrorists do not get to frame the reaction of the nation(s) the terrorists attempt to destabilize.

Please continue posting on here, and welcome back to Culture for All!

Red Tulips said...

Ben Stein, who I normally disagree with, really summed up my opinion quite well re: the "disproportionate" claim. (found on Israellycool)

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10117

Lebanese Hezbollah strong points and neighborhoods is "disproportionate." The Israeli campaign, so this story goes, is bullying and terrorizing the Lebanese populace, and this is (so the argument goes) typical Israeli thug behavior.

Hmmm.

Let's see. In World War II, the Germans bombed exactly no United States cities or towns. We bombed the hell out of them, day and night, for more than two years, including helping the British with firebombing Dresden, one of the most appalling civilian killings by a free people of all time.

Was it disproportionate? Well, no. The Nazis had bombed our allies, the British, in terror raids for years. They had started a world war. They had created a genocide unspeakable in human history. So, yes, there was horrible killing, but is anyone now saying it was disproportionate? Maybe a few, but not many.

The Japanese bombed exactly zero U.S. cities except for a few stray bombs on Honolulu. We firebombed every city we could find and used the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Was this disproportionate? No, because the Japanese had started a world war and caused unspeakable suffering through Asia and the Pacific. Bombing was what it took to end the war in both Europe and the Pacific.

Now, Israel is bombing Beirut. The Lebanese have been sheltering Hezbollah killers who have been rocketing and bombing Israel for ten years almost every day. The Lebanese have admitted the terrorists into dominant positions in their government. In every way, Lebanon has made itself a haven for terrorists bombing civilians day in and day out in Israel. Is Israel finally standing up and saying enough "disproportionate"? Yes, if you think Israel and Jews should be permanent victims who suffer, bleed, and die in silence the way the Nazis preferred. No, if you believe Jews have the same rights as other people to defend themselves.

Look, if the Israelis wanted to inflict a lot of casualties from the air, they could. They have the second best air force in the world. Clearly, they are showing restraint. Three hundred dead is a lot, and every human's death is sad unless he's a terrorist, but we were killing 30,000 in a few hours in World War II and glorying in it. No news shows were showing German civilians getting fried and saying how sad it was. It was war against butchers and war is horrible, but it's war, and to defend human decency, sometimes war is necessary.

By any historic measure, Israel's response to a decade of torment is extremely restrained -- maybe too restrained. And it can stop any time the Hezbollah says they will use peaceful means to get their aims. I don't hear them saying that. What I hear is a thousand Hezbollah rockets falling on exclusively civilian targets in Eretz Israel. There's your answer about whether Israel's response is disproportionate.

Albion Moonlight said...

I personally do not approve of the firebombings of Tokyo (and other Japanese cities) and Dresden, etc. Disproprortionate? Absolutely. I think it is a false comparison, but if it's a comparison you want to make, go ahead. Atrocity is atrocity, whether it is done by "our side" or "theirs".

Steven said...

Welcome to CultureForAll Albion Moonlight.

AM: "I fail to see how Lebanese forces reacting to Israel's INVASION of Lebanon does not equate to DEFENDING itself. Their true colors? It seems Israel is showing it's true colors as we speak."

The reason this is news is because the world believes that Hezbollah is in Lebanon against their wishes - that Lebanon wants to eliminate Hezbollah but are unable to.

If this is the case, Lebanon would be fighting Hezbollah at this time - not threatening Israel for eliminating their enemy.

If this report is accurate, however, it means that the Ceadar revolution failed and Lebanon is nothing but an extention of Syria.

*****

AM: "Well, let's see, Israel has bombed civilians, the infrastructure of Lebanon, it's airports, highways and has created a blockade of supplies into Lebanon."

Civilians have died due to Israeli bombs, yes - but Israel has not bombed civilians.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation which even threatens the United States on its home turf - they have been attacking Israel for about 6 years and only now has Israel responded.

BG:
'Israel has launched 3000 air strikes on Lebanon since the beginning of the Operation and inflicted only 122 casualties. If Israel's intention was to kill civilians you would have seen many more civilian deaths than only 122. They are being extremely careful, even dropping flyers and urging civilians to leave before they bomb. These casualties are "terrorists" and terrorist families and sympathizers.'

*****

AM: "was listening to an NPR correspondant this morning, who was describing 'precision bombings' of trucks on Lebanese highways, ostensibly because they were carrying weapons to Hezbollah, but she said all the ones she saw contained fruit or other inoccuous items."

Israel does not target trucks of fruit - it is counter productive and least of all expensive. Notice the emotive language in the news, in the coming days it will become more anti-Israel as our American set time-limit is reached and the US decides that we are not able to finish the job. If Israel doesn't finish the job and eliminate Hezbollah, it will be an utter disaster.

*****

AM: "To say that one form of terror is "self defense" and another is "aggression" is merely taking semantic sides. I don't agree."

Define:
"Self-defense usually refers to the use of violence to protect oneself."

Israel was attacked and therefore it is responding in self defence. It is fighting to disable Hezbollah's ability to attack Israelis.

*****

AM: "I followed the debate on the children signing the bombs. I still see no reason to believe those weren't Israeli children signing Israeli ordanance."

I didn't follow this much, and I thought they were Israeli children. IMHO: I don't care that they are in a war zone or were cooped up in bunkers for a week, kids should not hang around military targets under any circumstances. This never happens in Israel and that is why the fact that this has now happened is shocking news. This is being flared up in order to make Israel look like the terrorist groups we are fighting, but this image is miles from the truth.

*****

Just a last note on proportion - what would the world say if Israel fired one shell accross the border at civilian homes for every one lobbed over the border at our homes?

(Of course this will get us nowhere.)

Steven said...

Proportion

Albion Moonlight said...

Steven,

This much I agree with: "If Israel doesn't finish the job and eliminate Hezbollah, it will be an utter disaster."

That is because Israel has escalated the situation so much now that there is probably no turning back. I've seen pictures of Lebanon and the destruction is utter. I've also read that nearly all the bridges have been destroyed. Destroying an entire populations ability to travel and move goods is terrorism.

I've also read reports of 300 casualties, not the 122 you mention, though I would argue that accurate figures are probably going to be hard to come by at the moment.

This is not to mention the destruction in Gaza that has been eclipsed by the escalation in Lebanon.

I find it pretty amusing that you and Miss R talk about an "anti-Israeli" bent in the US news coverage. If you're talking about emotive language, how come Israeli "soldiers" always "capture" "militants", while Arab "terrorists" always "kidnap" soldiers? If there is no Palestinian force that can openly defeat Israeli soldiers (thanks in large part to the $2.5 billion annual US subsidy) then surely the militant groups have to be seen as the legitimate force (IF this is a war)? I don't know who you are kidding, but the US news media is hardly anti-Israeli. And certainly the US government isn't.

Alright, final point. I see the untenable situation, and recognize that something must be done. Here is my proposal. Israel, including the occupied territories becomes one country, with guaranteed rights for all races and creed, a secular democracy where all can participate. Why is this impossible (and don't say that it's because the Palestinians would never agree to it, because you know Israeli Jews never would either)?

Red Tulips said...

Albion:

You just don't get it. Israel is in fact a nation where Jews and Muslims peacefully coexist. They're called Israeli Arabs, and they make up 20% of the population.

The 'Palestinians' have a very questionable tie to the land, and they repeatedly elect leaders who desire to literally kill every single Jew within Israel. Look at the Charter of Hamas! It calls for the total destruction of Israel. How can you coexist with people like that? It is quite clear that the 'Palestinians,' should they get the "right of return" would use that as an excuse to quickly kick every jew OUT of Israel.

I also have a very detailed explanation of the bias in the media and a response to the rest of your points on a blog that I go to. (I am "Red")

http://www.baboards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18403&page=2

Red Tulips said...

Also, the Palestinians want an Islamic state, NOT a secular democracy. In contrast, Israel is a secular democracy.

I think you are probably under many misimpressions about the founding of the State of Israel, and exactly how and why Jews are there right now. I suggest a trip to the Jewish Virtual Library - you will get a relatively abridged history of the region.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/ishisttoc.html

Also invaluable:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

Hope that helps!

Steven said...

Heya Albion,

"That is because Israel has escalated the situation so much now that there is probably no turning back."

Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO... they are like Nazism, and they are armed to the teeth. Their mission is the eradication of Israel and it doesn't stop there. Hamas for example have cited many American organisations they wish to destroy on their charter - look it up, it is an interesting read.

Hezbollah have been firing at Israel for over 6 years. There comes a point where one can no longer accept being murdered at random at the whim of a terrorist organisation, and that point was reached when they crossed the border and attacked.

The reason Israel has to destroy Hezbollah is because if they don't, we will only embolden them.

*****

AM: "I've seen pictures of Lebanon and the destruction is utter. I've also read that nearly all the bridges have been destroyed."

Bridges are used in war, in the 73 day war it took Israel days to make a bridge accross the suez. They are important assets and allow movement. Destroying these bridges seperates Hezbolllah and damages their capabilities.

Hezbollah are an army and just when Hezbollah operate from a house, it is a military target. The bridges are military targets.

AM: "Destroying an entire populations ability to travel and move goods is terrorism."

No, Hezbollah has entrenched itself in civilian ares, Israel is targetting Hezbollah.

Hezbollah targets civilians, after being attacked for 6 years we see a response, however we are being very careful - perhaps too careful. Israel has dropped flyers warning the civilian population so that they can leave. Enough is enough and we are going after Hezbollah.

Terrorism is what Hezbollah does, massacring civilians at random. Israel targets Hezbollah.

*****

:) I have gotta go, catch you later.

Steven said...

AM, I would like to reply to your last comment but I am away. In the mean time, this article is worth looking at.

Steven said...

Heya Albian,

You have proposed the "One State Solution".

AM: "Why is this impossible (and don't say that it's because the Palestinians would never agree to it, because you know Israeli Jews never would either)?"

Due to population differences, a one state solution would render the Jewish people a minority in a short time due to demographics. Israeli Jews would never agree to it because we would no longer be safe. Israel is a Jewish majority country, the only such country on the planet. Anti-Semitism is the most stable habit of the world, and this is one reason for why Israel must remain a Jewish majority state - so that we can defend ourselves.

The Palestinians do not want the disputed, note: not "occupied" land - they want all of Israel.

This was demonstrated when they rejected the peel comission, the partition plan, started a genocidal war in 1948, formed terrorist organisations and attacked our civlians, formed the PLO that defined Palestinians for the first time in 1964 and described "Palestine" as the borders of Israel - note: not Judea, Samarra or Gush katif. It was demonstrated in the 67 war when Israel was attacked again - won, offered peace, and were given the three no's. It was demonstrated again when the PLO changed their definition of "Palestine" in 1968 to include Judea, Samarra and Gush Katif (today's "occupation"). It was demonstrated again through the 70's, in the 1973 war - the increased PLO terrorism and eventually the 82 war where Israel went into Lebanon to stop the terrorist attacks. It was demonstrated at Oslo and Camp David where Israel offered to return 97% of the land in exchange for peace, the PLO still haven't even changed their charter. It was demonstrated when Israel withdrew from Gush Katif and then had rockets fired at them from the land they left. It was demonstrated by the election of Hamas.

The Sphinx said...

"Lebanon, aka. not Hezbollah, declared they will repel any Israeli ground troops.

The Lebanese army does not move against Hezbollah, but may move against Israel: conclusion - Lebanon is a supporter of terror."


Forgive me if I say this is the absolute dumbest thing I've read in the whole propaganda war.

When Israel invades Lebanon and does the insane damage it has done (And don't deny that it was really intense s***), do you expect the Lebanese people to throw flowers at them when they enter? Lots of lebanese people want Hezbollah to be shut out, and Israel had the GRAND chance of being their hero, and effectively destroying Hezbollah without doing any more damage.
BUT Israel grandiously screwed up that chance and started destroying the only liberal arab nation in the area. They bombed places with absolutely no Hezbollah presence whatsoever, razed the homes of people, killed 10 times as much people as it has lost and displaced half a million people (Were those supporters of terror?)

The Lebanese aren't supporting Hezbollah. They'll be merely defending themselves against the demented Israeli forces that have so far turned their lives into hell. Because if they don't, they'll be subject to the Israeli terror. Nobody in his right mind would sit around and watch.

Red Tulips said...

Sphinx:

Perhaps Mustapha - the Lebanese man from the blog "Beirut Spring" - can explain best why it would be a terrible move on the Lebanese army's part to aid Hezbollah.

http://beirutspring.blogspot.com/2006/07/crazy-elias.html

There's a general consensus here that the Minister of Defense's statement that the Lebanese Army will fight alongside Hezbollah in the case of a ground invation, is at best a mistake and at worst an insanity.

Dispatching the Lebanese army to fight will transform this war into a conventional war where Israelis have an upper (way upper) hand. It will convert our armed forces (who will eventually hold the peace) into sitting ducks. It will also give an excuse for the Israelis to bomb all of Lebanon, since this would become a country-vs-country war.

Your Excellency, please keep your opinions to yourself!


Maybe that resonates with you as to one reason why it would be just beyond stupid for the Lebanese army to get involved.

But then another reason is that the Lebanese have been saying they are innocents in this mess, caught between Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and Israel. They no longer are innocents and unite with terrorists if they help Hezbollah.

A smarter move on Lebanon's part would be to take this as an opportunity to expunge Hezbollah from their nation once and for all. This is something that really helps the Maronite Christians, Druze, and Sunni Lebanese. Hell, it even helps the Shia Lebanese, because Hezbollah is anti-thought, anti-progress, and pro-extremism, pluls they are actively supported by Iran/Syria, and thus are preventing Lebanon from being a sovereign nation. They are helping NO ONE. They are anti-freedom fighters.

The Sphinx said...

And who will pay for the unnecessary damage Israel has done? As long as Israel thinks it's allowed to destroy these peoples' lives, then it's the complete right of these people to defend themselves. Just as you say it's Israel's right to defend itself against Hezbollah's hostile actions.

Or is it suddenly a rule that nobody is allowed to defend themselves except Israel? Because that's what some people make it sound like.

Something else: Let's imagine the Lebanese people started fighting Hezbollah. They would be fighting against those (and will get attacked back by them), add to that they will have to put up against the ruthless Israeli attacks that target them too. So ultimately, the most people who are going to suffer are the ones who had nothing to with this whole thing in the first place: The Lebanese people.

Fair? Not really.

Red Tulips said...

Israel is doing what it can to both fight a war and minimize civilian casualties. Unfortunately, people die in a war. Hezbollah should have thought of that before they initiated war against Israel. Ultimately, Hezbollah is to blame for this mess.

The Sunni, Druze, and Christian Lebanese did not ask for any of this, and neither did a minority of the Shia. I do feel bad for them. But they had six years to clean house, and did nothing. They did not appeal to international aid organizations - they did nothing. That makes them somewhat complicit.

It's an ugly mess all around, and I understand the legitimate concerns of the Lebanese, namely, that they are mostly innocents stuck in a cross fire not of their making. I believe that Israel should have targeted Syria instead of Southern Beirut. However, that would have escalated things to a whole other level, and it does make some sense why they opted against that.

In the long run, I would like to believe that the Lebanese will be helped out if Israel rids them of Hezbollah. This is my hope.

But we will see what history brings.

Red Tulips said...

Sphinx:

I just want to say welcome to Culture for All! I may disagree with you, but talking through the disagreements is what ultimately will lead to peace in this world. :-)

The Sphinx said...

Miss R., thanks for welcoming me :-)

I know we quite strongly disagree on many things and have debated quite a lot, but I'm always open for discussion. We don't _have_ to agree after all, do we.

Cheers :-)

Red Tulips said...

Why is it that qrswave's site brings out the worst in me, and the worst in everyone? Prpbably because I am so personally invested in it, given I know qrswave in that silly thing called "real life."

*sighs*

Thank you for coming here and engaging in a civil discussion. You are welcome here anytime. :-)

P.S.: You might want to check out some of my links to Middle Eastern blogs. I think you will find it all very interesting.

The Sphinx said...

Miss R., I suppose it's because it's a really controversial topic to discuss, as there are lots of horrific things behind this whole war. When you see opinions on it, you either swing out to fully support them, or totally oppose them. And discussing stuff on the net under extremely opposite views leads to flame wars. It's nothing new.
So I wouldn't put that under the category "the worst of people". Only real wars bring out the very worst of people (and rarely the best in others too).

I'm sorry if I have dissed you a few times. I'll try to restrain myself, because it won't help at all. Also feel free to pass by my blog too. It's generally not politically motivated (except for a few recent entries. Current affairs, you know..).

It never fails to amaze me how many hot debates between another person and I end up in friendly conversation. We haven't reached common ground yet, but that always happens in the end too, so I'm interested what we will ultimately agree on at some point ;-)

I'll check out those blog links, I know a few of them already. Thanks

Peace =)

Red Tulips said...

sphinx:

Seeing you posting civil things on here reminds me of the friendship I lost with qrswave, and kind of makes me sad. I just get so passionate when people diss Israel as she has.

Re: This current war - I would say I conditionally support it. I support the war on condition that Lebanon gets to be rebuilt, and that Israel does what is necessary to root out Hezbollah. Finishing the job in a half assed way is worse than not going in. It means Hezbollah lives to see another day, and the Lebanese people have their nation in ruins. It's the worst of all possibilities.

We shall see what the future brings us!

Thanks for brightening my day with your civility. :-)

The Sphinx said...

I'm sorry about your lost friendship with qrswave. But I'm sure you can restore it again. Look at it this way:
I admit that I didn't think it would be possible for us to come on good terms _that_ quickly, but it happened anyhow. Now think about how possible it can be between you both. Plus you were friends before.
Come on, we're all fighting over something we are powerless against. None of us have enough power to actually change what's going on. If we just forgot about it for a second (difficult, I know) we can all just get along. If you both tried, you'll be friends again in no time, though your opinions are totally adverse.

"I support the war on condition that Lebanon gets to be rebuilt"

I really, really REALLY hope it get's rebuilt. It would be very unfair to destroy a previously war-torn country and render all investments and past rebuilding projects moot, and not fix up the damage done. That would be a serious humanitarian crime.
Generally though I'm anti-wars. It's probably naive to say this, but I'll never understand why people wage wars against each other in the first place. Sometimes fighting may be inevitable, but wars start over the dumbest of reasons. Because humans are stupid.

But as we're in this war already, I can only support the idea of rebuilding what was destroyed, the faster the better. At last we've reached a common ground :-)

Thanks for your friendly welcome. I really needed that.

Red Tulips said...

sphinx:

I think qrswave and I said things to each other that we will likely not forgive easily. But who knows, the saying is "time heals all wounds."

You are welcome here anytime. I welcome intelligent disagreement.

The Sphinx said...

Thanks a lot :-)

You reckon I could talk to her about it? We chat occasionally. Just tell me if I can do anything..

Red Tulips said...

sphinx:

No, please do not intervene. We need breathing room for the moment.

The Sphinx said...

Ok, I can understand. But don't lose hope though. I'm sure one day you'll be friends again, once things die down in this conflict.

Steven said...

Stone Nose: "The Lebanese aren't supporting Hezbollah. They'll be merely defending themselves against the [] Israeli forces..."

Heya Sphinx, I don't think you read my first comment either.

"This is significant as the narrative has been that Lebanon is suffering the cancer of Hezbollah. If Lebanon do not not move against Hezbollah but choose to act against Israel at this point in time we will see their true colours."

And to rephrase it in another way - this is Lebanon's perfect oppertunity to remove Hezbollah and establish true soverignty for the first time since the cedar revolution. Lebanon has not attempted to stop Hezbollah, if Lebanon instead choose to stop Israel eliminating Hezbollah (after they committed acts of war against Israel), it shows that

a) they want to stand with terrorist groups

b) they are not at hostage to Hezbollah but in support of Hezbollah and

c) Lebanon are responsible for the acts of war against it conducted by Hezbollah as they choose not to stop them from attacking Israel.

As I always say, actions speak louder than words. We will see what happens.

Albion Moonlight said...

I hate to interrupt your little love fest here but... nah, I don't really. Look, I took some time off to have a nice weekend with friends and live a little and when it comes down to it, there is truly nothing I can do about the eternal conflict. My experience and my gut tells me that these are the storm clouds on the horizon of a darker storm, but this too we shall weather. Best to you all.

Steven said...

AM: "I took some time off to have a nice weekend with friends and live a little"

Thats always important. :)

AM: "and when it comes down to it, there is truly nothing I can do about the eternal conflict."

People do and can make a difference, but knowing this is frightening - do we have responsibility to stand up to what is happening?

AM: "My experience and my gut tells me that these are the storm clouds on the horizon of a darker storm"

I think you are right Albian.

AM: "but this too we shall weather."

Let's hope so.