Sunday, August 13, 2006

When will the Muslims of Britain stand up and be counted?

Lord Stevens wrote a powerful and absolutely dead on balls accurate column about terrorism. MUST READ! I want to add that there have been instances of Muslim Brits standing up against terror - but let's face it, few and far between. The Muslims as a community need to disavow terror, and they haven't. And that's a tragedy. There are good Muslims and there HAVE been demonstrations...but why not more? Why equivocations in the stance against terror? And why are the largest Muslim civil rights organizations RUN BY TERRORISTS? This needs to change. There is no reason for this. We must all unite and take a strong stance against terror, and cannot be afraid to say the politically incorrect truth.


Kevin said...

Well thats what makes me angry with the muslim community in the UK. They turn a blind eye to terrorism and if it turns out that some young muslims from their area are arrested for Terrorism related offences, then they start ranting about racism and being victims of Police prejudice (i'm sure there are some racist police officers still). The Police have made mistakes, no doubt about that, however it is high time the Muslim community in the UK stood up and tackled those preachers of hate.

Render said...

It isn't just the UK. It's most of Europe.

The Moslem community of the UK is led by and spoken for, by those very same preachers of hate.

The eye that sees is hardly blind.


Monkey Chops said...

Yeah. Those damn Muslim bastards turn a blind eye to terror all the damn time. They preach hate in all the mosques. They never encourage peaceful relations with their superior white neighbours. Everytime they teach peaceful Qur'anic verses to their kids, it's with a caveat that it's actually OK to kill everyone these days. Yeah. Damn those Muslims. They're so ridiculous to even try to engage in any dialogue with anyone, because they're a bunch of Pakis.

Red Tulips said...


I am not sure if you think that that is what I said, because it is quite clear it's not.

The facts are on the ground are clear. Muslims as a people have NOT stood up and demanded an end to terror. Have individual Muslim groups done so? Yes. But they hardly represent the vast majority of Muslims.

That doesn't mean every Muslim is a terrorist - I never said that, nor did I imply it.

But until there is a greater demand by Muslims to end terror, and the end to moral equivocations ("well, I am against terror, but I understand why they did it because of XYZABC") terrorism will not go away.

That's just a fact.

Monkey Chops said...

But somehow, when Israel is criticised for bombing Palestinians and Lebanese, it's perfectly OK to cite the caveat "Yes, but the Palestinians did this, this and this, and the Lebanese did this, this and this." Double standards, much?

Red Tulips said...


No. I see the bombing in Lebanon as self preservation, and aimed at military targets. There is no moral equivalence at what Israel is doing and what terrorists are doing. None.

Furthermore, terror is not working. The Palestinians were on the verge of getting most of the West Bank (Olmert was going to GIVE IT TO THEM), and now they won't get it, because of the stupid policy of using Gaza and Lebanon as a launchpads for rockets/missiles. It would be suicidal for Israel to give up the land at this point, and so they won't.

To even pretend that the actions of the terrorists are in the same UNIVERSE as the actions of Israel is ignoring reality.

However, when Israel does misbehave, I do call them out, and I have called them out. It's just simply that what they have done is nothing in comparison to what Hamas/PRC/Islamic Jihad/Hizballah/etc have done.

So yeah, no double standards here...

Monkey Chops said...

Self-preservation? Tell that to the Lebanese children who've lost their parents. Go right now and do it. Seriously. If you're so sure of yourself, I want you to find a Lebanese orphan who lost her mother and father to Israeli bombing and tell them "Sorry, kid, it's self-preservation." Go to the people who've lost their limbs by being cluster-fucked by the morally-superior Israeli forces and say "Hey, it's self-preservation. Lighten up!" Only then will I take anything you have to say seriously.

Red Tulips said...


Now you are just spouting nonsense.

German kids lost parents during WWII, but it doesn't mean that the war wasn't justified. Civilian deaths are inevitable during war and in and of itself are not proof of a war's legitimacy or lack therof.

In war, people die. Hizby should have thought of that before it waged its calculated war of terror against Israel. They also should have thought of that before they stopped civilians from leaving Lebanon, and hid out in civilian neighborhoods.

The deaths in Lebanon are proximately Hizby's fault, period.

Oh yeah, and why not tell your ideas about Israel not having a right to self preservation (which you are implying) to the kid in Haifa who lost their mom to katusha rockets?

Btw, I was worried we would get into arguments if you read my website. Please don't let my opinions about Israel affect our friendship, as I am not letting your opinions affect our friendship.


-Red Tulips

Monkey Chops said...

I have to mention that I do actually accept Israel's right to exist. But my point is, despite Israel's moral right to exist, there can never be a justification for the killing of innocents on either side. To say "Yeah, it's OK - that's war" is sickening, afaic; and that applies to whichever side says it. It's that complacency which eventually leads to extreme reactions. No caveat justifies the killing of innocents. End of story.

I was actually going to bite my tongue (or fingers, I suppose!) over what was being said here, but I feel that some of the views expressed here are disproportionate to what a lot of Muslims actually think. I suggest you visit mosques and talk to Muslims to truly gauge what they think, rather than rely on Google. But if you want to ignore my advice, visit this blog:

On a separate point, to say "I've read the Qur'an" is a fallacy. You've read a translation which is never the same thing as reading the book in its original Arabic. Besides, to read the Qur'an and assume that's all there is to Islamic thought is extremely dangerous. No Muslim relies solely on the Qur'an for guidance on any matter. There are volumes of traditions and commentary which discuss the meaning of verses; there are at least four separate schools of thought regarding how to apply Islamic belief to the real world. Reading the Qur'an is actually far more vast than just reading the Qur'an, if you see what I mean.

Our friendship is intact, btw. Initially, I was furious with you, but you're entitled to your opinions, just as I am. No worries there!

Red Tulips said...


Sometimes there is no choice in war. A nation cannot just say "Okay, kill me!" I am sorry, but the world doesn't work that way, and if Israel did that, then Israeli civilians would be killed in very high numbers - something you just said you are not okay with. Given the fact that Hizby started this mess and has killed Israeli civilians for YEARS, Israel had no choice in their fight with Hizby. (I also believe the ceasefire was a stupid option that will be proven as much in short time) So when war is inevitable, so is the killing of civilians. Israel has done all it can to MINIMIZE civilian deaths, whereas Hizby has done all it can to MAXIMIZE civilian deaths. There is no question where the moral high ground rests.

I have spoken to Muslims to see what they think, but it is clearly impossible for me to speak to all Muslims. It is hard to deny the mass anti-semitism on a wide scale (yes, I use anti-semitism as a word, because it is the common useage of the term), and the mass amounts of hate taught on a wide scale. If anything, this is even worse than what is found in the Koran. It is also taught in mosques. Oh, and the local mosque near me was used by one of the 9/11 hijackers, so...yeah...

This again does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists, or are somehow "born to hate." Indeed, I believe that we all are tabula rasas when born, and have to be taught to hate. But it does mean that there has to be a cultural shift on a very wide scale if terrorism is to end. It does mean that the culture of victimhood has to end, particularly for the Palestinians, in order for peace to be possible. Peace is not impossible. I just doubt that there can be peace in my lifetime. But it's about incremental changes. This is why I started this site - to slowly inform people of the reality out there, and moreover, to hope to make a dent, albeit a small one, in the problem.

I guess this is because, at heart, I am an optimist...

Monkey Chops said...

What hate does the Qur'an teach? I use 'Qur'an' because that is the correct spelling or at least more so than Koran (which just proves my point further that you really haven't adequately studied it at all. Hell, my sister is doing a three year undergrad and she still says there's so much to learn from it).

I find the whole Israel-Lebanon debacle a joke, just by virtue of the coverage by the Murdoch-owned media. This war has not started in the last few weeks. Israel invaded the Lebanon over 20 years ago and still occupy a portion of southern Lebanon. Hizbollah was created to counter-act that invasion. It's funny what people remember. They might have an anti-Semitic manifesto, but their motivations are clearly nationalist. But hey, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Of course I don't condone the murder of civilians on either side, but I do condemn the double-talk at play recently.

Saying that Israel is minimising casualties is preposterous. Their weapons are designed for maximum damage, courtesy of the US. Were they minimising casualties when they bombed the beaches of Gaza? Bollocks were they. How can you say that with a straight face?