Thursday, June 14, 2007

David Cameron declares himself a zionist and the current internal Palestinian violence

"If what you mean by Zionist, is someone who believes that the Jews have a right to a homeland in Israel and a right to their country then, yes, I am a Zionist and I'm proud of the fact that Conservative politicians down the ages have played a huge role in helping to bring this about." JP article on Cameron. Probably about the best thing Cameron has said in the past month (his grammar school comments had me snorting into my tea). If Cameron means it, is another question entirely. He seems to say a lot of things that play well with a particular group of people. I think it is high time that people in the UK had a more reasonable view of Israel, other than the bog standard "They kill Palestinians indiscriminately, occupy land illegally, part of the Zionist agenda" that the left tend to pump out with great vehemence. I have had many disagreements with Tulips over Israel, but i hold the firm belief that the world would be a much poorer place without Israel. Which on balance has a very good democracy, treats Palestinians in it's hospitals where possible and are willing to make peace with the Palestinians, providing Hamas recognises Israel and it's right to exist. Though it seems that Hamas is hell bent on controlling the Gaza strip and in doing so creating a small Islamic state that is undemocratic (i can't see Hamas holding elections, unless they feel sure of victory in the polls) and a regime that will propel Palestinians into ever more violent attacks against Israel. All the while demanding respect from the West and of course the money that the West is with holding from Hamas. It may seem like a good thing for Israel that the Palestinians are fighting and killing each other, but it's not. If Hamas gains control over the Gaza strip and more importantly young Palestinian minds, then Israel will be facing a much tougher and more radicalised enemy. Though I'm surprised that it's taken Hamas this long to try and create a dictatorship that replaces the old guard. BBC News Article. Jerusalem Post article. CNN article


saltynick said...

Cameron declares ethnic-nationalism for Jews is fine and dandy, while constantly attacking ethnic-nationalism among the British peoples, and you salute him!

Dave is racist against your people Kev! Are you sure you're not racist too?

Kevin said...

David Cameron and the other party leaders are against the kind of nationalism the British Nationalist Party stands for.

I don't like Cameron, but at least he has the balls to say what he thinks or at least pretends to think.

Anyway screw nationalism, we are all the same at the end of the day. Lets live in hippy peace and harmony, rather than trying to kill each other with ever more effective weapons and political blustering.

saltynick said...

Screw nationalism means screw Zionism.

David Cameron is FOR the BNP type of nationalism as it pertains to Jews, but AGAINST it for the British peoples - that's racism; as the BNP simply want to have their group enjoy the 'rights' that Cameron defends for Jews - they appear to be the anti-racists compared to Dave.

It's because manking won't live in hippy peace and harmony, and because ethnies usually do kill one another when forced to share a territory, that ethnic-homelands like Israel are necessary Kevin; but necessary for all!


Kevin said...

BNP's idea of british people ?
Anyone who is white. Everyone else can sod off back to where they came from. Zionism is a myth propagated by the Arab nationalists.

I am now going to swan off to enjoy a kosher custard pudding.

saltynick said...

Does it make you feel good to say something bad about the BNP Kevin, much as it made you feel good to say something good about Israel?

I wonder if you could look a little deeper though, perhaps at your reasoning, maybe at your prejudices...

You ask the Palestinians to 'recognise Israel's right to exist' and this trope is heard so often and is so loaded in favour of righteousness that it seems wrong to challenge it, doesn't it?

But what are you really asking for?

I think you demand that one set of people who had their land taken from them by force admit that their aggressors 'had the right' to do this. You are suggesting that the European colonists of Asia, Africa and the Americas had the 'right' to ethnically cleanse and rule over huge swathes of the globe - aren't you?

Or do you plead a special dispensation for Jews as you support David Cameron doing?

I'm hoping you will debate principles and prejudices; and consider how -if we are not careful- the principles we think of as leading to good ends might not always do so, and how important it is to occasionally reconsider and challenge our basic worldview (which having, inevitably makes us prejudiced).

Firing off a few salvoes at the BNP for the benefit of the audience counts for nought if Griffin's ethnic-nationalism is at least as reasonable as the Zionists' (much more so, truly); and if your expressed support for Israel leaves little ground on which to oppose imperialism and ethnic-cleansing as they unfold - for they are a 'right' apparently.

Kevin said...

The answer is simple -
The Palestinians give up their struggle to destroy the state of Israel. Palestinians and Jews have their own states - Palestine and Israel. They share Jerusalem as a joint captial.

Though it is near enough impossible to get that solution to happen, while the Palestinians want to destroy the state of Israel and carry out genocide against the Jews. Though that is not to say that the Israeli's don't have tough choices of their own to make to secure peace.

Zionism is just another form of anti semitism. It propagates the myth that a horde of evil jews are ruling the world.

The Arabs kicked off the 1967 war, they lost the land. Can't blame Israel for defending itself and taking land in the process. That's the nature of war, winners take all, losers take nothing.
There were Jews in the middle east well before the 20th century (there is a small population of Jews in Iran for example). Israel has a right to exist. Otherwise where do the Jews go ? Into the sea ?
Israel is a fact of life, deal with it.
As for the BNP they are racist and intolerant towards anyone who is not British in their eyes i.e. jews, muslims, Black people etc.

As for your points about European imperialism - It's part of human nature to want to dominate those who you see as inferiror and not your equals.
It's happened throughout history, from the Roman Empire dominating the then known world to the British Empire domainting most of the world and so on.
Arab imperislism is as great a threat just as much as western imperialism is.

My core belief has always been this - We are all human beings and therefore the same. We live, we reproduce, we die. What causes differences are ones of culture, fear, religions clashing and plain old hatred based on irrational thinking.

saltynick said...


I hope like you that the Palestinians will recognise Israel; that they accept they have been displaced and dispossessed. But unlike you, I don't blame the ornery among the Palestinians for being so. As I said before, you ask the victim to express thanks for his victimisation and respect for his aggressor.

At this point in our discussion I feel justified in suggesting that our difference of opinion on this subject is down to you supporting imperialism, racism, and a might-is-right-policy (as long as it favours the ethnies you favour), while I tend toward a universal-nationalist paradigm.

It's clear I will not soon convince you to grant groups such as Palestinians and the English the rights to nationhood you so passionately defend for Jews. All that is left is for me to hope that if you are an Englishman, you will one day come to realise that WE TOO have a right to that privilege we granted the Jews in 1948.

Thanks for letting me post here K, best,

felix said...

I am reading the conversation above between Kevin and Saltynick with interest. Re modern Israel, my (simplified) way of seeing it, in current-day terminology, is that the Jews were ethnically cleansed from Palestine around 70 AD. Then after almost two millenuium, thru endless persecution and discrimination wherever they went, they returned (with the help of others) to their land. During all that time Jews had continuing presence in the holy land, thru all the various empires and nationalities that took over the area.

Eitan Ha'ahzari said...

Kevin: I'd like to address an issue other than David Cameron. You make the statement that:

"It may seem like a good thing for Israel that the Palestinians are fighting and killing each other, but it's not. If Hamas gains control over the Gaza strip and more importantly young Palestinian minds, then Israel will be facing a much tougher and more radicalised enemy.

Wrong! It's just great how the Pseudostinians are killing each other left and right. Most left-wingers here would agree with me on this, too. No one hates Pseudostinians more than the Israeli left. Sure, they're willing to make peace with them, but they want them separate from us, and that is what's going to happen in the long run.

About Hamas being "more radical" than the Fatah, you couldn't be more wrong. The Fatah is responsible for far more Israeli casualties than the Hamas. In fact, the Fatah has the same exact agenda as the Hamas: to wipe out Israel creating a Palestinian state where Israel used to be. The only difference is that the Fatah leaders are a bunch of miserable lying hypocrits who are ready to tell the Israeli media one thing and their constituency something entirely different.